Mastering Your Mindset Using the Enneagram with Nicole Saunders

Jaclyn Mellone

Welcome to Go-To Gal, episode number 197. As always, I’m your host, Jaclyn Mellone. And today, we are talking about the Enneagram. Now, you are likely familiar with Enneagram. You probably know what that is, and if you don’t, we’re going to go into it. I promise we will go there with a very simple explanation. Essentially, it’s one of those personality assessments. There are all these different tools. It’s a little bit different though, and I’m going to let our guest today explain it to you if you don’t know what it is. But likely, you are familiar with Enneagram. And you’ve probably already listened to a podcast episode about Enneagram before.

So I wanted to take this time with Nicole, with our guest today, who is a certified Enneagram coach, and go where most people don’t get a chance to go on these podcast episodes. So even if you’re brand new to Enneagram, you’re still going to benefit from this conversation. But if you are not brand new to Enneagram, I wanted to make sure that we had a lot of focus on things that maybe you hadn’t heard people talk about before. We’re going to go beyond the basics. I didn’t want her to focus on my Enneagram type or anything like that. I was really trying to think of how do we make the most of this time together, and talking about the Enneagram in a way that maybe you haven’t heard before. 

Now, where I was inspired to take this conversation is in the mindset direction. So one of the reasons that I love Enneagram, there’s a bunch of different assessments and tools that I love to use with clients and students, and honestly, with myself to understand myself better and help build that self-awareness. Not at all self-aware. So these tools give me that outside perspective that maybe I hadn’t realized before, bring things into my awareness, and then I can start to tackle them.

So where Enneagram fits into that is it’s really great with mindset. In fact, I think I talk about that in this conversation. Sometimes I get episodes confused because I don’t record my intro right after the actual podcast episode. But I know we talk about this at least a little bit, and that my quiz, if you’ve taken the Which movie villain is sabotaging your success? quiz. If you haven’t, go to jaclynmellone.com/quiz to take it for free. But that quiz started off with my own research and experience working with clients. And I ended up stumbling into how it overlapped with Enneagram and something called the Enneagram triads, which we’ll talk about in this conversation. But I think that Enneagram fits into this like, which assessments do I use for what is because your Enneagram is so deeply connected to things that happened in your childhood and how that frames your experience of life and how you’ve experienced the world and view the world. It’s so many of our mindset struggles are rooted in those same childhood experiences. And there’s this big connection there. So understanding our Enneagram helps us understand some of our habits and self-sabotaging behavior. 

Oh, because of that, so really interesting. So this conversation with Nicole today, our guest, Nicole Saunders, who has been on the show before as an honor coaching client for Pinterest a few years back like right at the beginning of Go-To Gal. So it’s cool to have her back. And now that she has pivoted her business, and she is certified in Enneagram and to really dive into how we can be using this tool to help us grow as entrepreneurs, to tap into this mindset side of things, but also how we can use it with people in our business, our team, our friends, our family. There are many different ways to utilize this tool to really have better relationships, whether that’s with ourselves, our clients, our team, our family because the mindset part of it is so ingrained. It really is a powerful tool for relationships. Okay, I don’t want to just blab on about all of that and get kicked out of the point. 

So let me formally introduce you to our guest today. And then we’re just going to dive in because I’m excited for you to hear how you can start thinking about your Enneagram type, or maybe you’ve been mistyped. Maybe you’ve mistyped yourself. Both Nicole and I, we’re both mistyped from online quizzes and we talked about how to spot that, how we spotted, and how we ultimately determined that we were mistyped and how we went about figuring out what the actual right type for us was. Nicole shares her favorite place to get the Enneagram test because they’re not all created equal and all of those things. So let me formally introduce you to her, and then we can dive in. 

Nicole Saunders is a business coach for female-identify entrepreneurs. She empowers women to grow their businesses by tapping into their personalities and strengths. When not working with clients, Nicole can be found hiking in the Blue Ridge Mountains in North Carolina with her husband and their three dogs while jamming out to Mumford & Sons. She loves making pottery and is obsessed with personality tests. Same, Nicole, the same. I love a good personality test hence why Nicole is here. All right, let’s get to it. Here’s my conversation with Nicole.

Nicole, I’m so excited to have you here. 

Nicole Saunders 

Me too. I’m excited to be here, Jaclyn. Thanks for having me. 

Jaclyn Mellone

All right. You have been on the Go-To Gal Podcast before but it was way, way back in the single-digit days. If we’re remembering it correctly, it was very early on. So let’s still go there. I guess, before we dive into you and all of the updates of exciting things that you have going on now, take us back to when you were growing up, and it might be a different answer. I don’t remember what you said the first time. But take us back to when you were growing up. What were you the Go-To Gal for back then?

Nicole Saunders

Oh gosh. What was I the go-to gal for? 

Jaclyn Mellone

I say it might be a different answer because I feel like I’ve answered this question differently a couple of times. So it depends on what’s more forefront in our minds.

Nicole Saunders

Yes. I feel like looking back now, people always came to me for my honest opinion. My mom would always be like, what do you think of this outfit? I’m like, is that it? Or, oh yes, I like that. So I was very just opinionated. People could count on me for an unfiltered true opinion. Or even now too, I think my friends will come to me and be like, hey, do you think I should do this? I’m like, do you want to do that? I don’t know. But I try to always give my true opinion of what I think when people ask. And I think looking back that is something that occurred even as a kid, high school, college, and all the years. 

Jaclyn Mellone

We all need a friend like that. We all need someone like that in our lives.

Nicole Saunders

Sorry if I made anyone cry. 

Jaclyn Mellone

I can imagine that it gets you in trouble sometimes. But for the most part, we all need that person. Oh, all right. So fast forward to today, tell us what do you do and who do you help? 

Nicole Saunders

Yes, so I’m an Enneagram coach and I work with leaders and entrepreneurs who want to be more conscious. So basically, instead of just going through life on autopilot or running your business on autopilot and working with people, but you don’t really understand them. And you’re just, why is this person so weird, or why did they do this? I help people with that. So it’s been a blast pivoting. When I was on your podcast back in the single-digit days, I was doing Pinterest. But now, I get to help people be better people which is so fulfilling to me.

Jaclyn Mellone

It is. It’s so cool to see how your business evolved, but it was a hard pivot. This wasn’t like an evolution of you were doing Pinterest and then it morphed into this. This was a conscious decision of, I want something different, which we could probably spend a whole episode on that. But with that pivot, you also decided to get a certification. And so even though we’re talking about Enneagram today, think that’s something that is definitely a personal decision and probably different for every single business. But so often people don’t worry about the certification or you don’t need it. And oh, typically you don’t “need” it, but you did decide to get that certification. And I’ve noticed a shift and even just your energy very shortly after getting the certification of how you feel about it. So I think it’s good for people to hear that perspective too. So what made you decide to get a certification?

Nicole Saunders

So I had people tell me, even former business coaches like, Nicole, you don’t need this. You already know enough. And so I had a debate and I was like, oh, do I need this? Do I need this? It’s a lot of money for a certification. It’s a piece of paper, literally. But I’m such a learner. I love absorbing knowledge. I’m like a sponge with it. And I wanted to be a hundred percent confident in what I was sharing teaching, guiding people through which I felt that I knew the Enneagram very well. Especially because I have a background in higher education. I have a Master’s in College Student Development. So basically, human psychology works with adults. And so I was like, oh, I don’t know if I need this. I don’t know if I need this. And then I was, you know what? I want this, so let’s go. Let’s do it. I’m all in. 

And honestly, I’m so glad that I did. I know that might not be the best decision for everybody, but for me, I gained a lot of contacts with the other people that were in the program. I felt that I learned so much from the woman who ran the certification program. She is the industry leader in using Enneagram in business. So I was like, why would I not do this? And I’m just so lit up by it. I don’t know. It’s like, hey, I paid for this piece of paper but it’s so much more because now, I feel confident that I am helping people and I’m doing it in a way that is appropriate and in guidelines of ethics and all of that. Yes, I had that before. But a refresh, it’s been 11 years since I finished my Master’s degree. So just to have this new, fresh reminder of helping people ethically in a helping way, and remembering, hey, this is coaching. This is not therapy. This is not counseling. So it was really, really good. I’m excited that I have it now.

Jaclyn Mellone

Oh, your energy with it is absolutely contagious so I love it. I know it’s good to share both sides of those things, because like you said, maybe you didn’t need it. You could have kept going without it. But having it has given you this extra knowledge, this extra boost, these relationships, this insight, and maybe confidence that comes with all of that too. Yes, you have the paper but it’s so much more than that. Okay, I’m pretty sure that everyone listening has heard of Enneagram, but I don’t know. Sometimes I make assumptions, and I’m wrong about these things. So how would you even describe what an Enneagram is? 

Nicole Saunders

Yes, so the Enneagram is that symbol with the nine numbers around a circle with all the lines crossing. And basically, it is a map of a personality. So every human can basically fit in one of these nine things. And they’re not boxes. So if you’re feeling like, oh, this is trapping me, that’s not what the Enneagram is for. It’s to help you understand yourself and how you are being perceived in the world. And also, to help you understand other people. So basically, there are nine types. They all have these core fears, core desires, motivations, and defense mechanisms. This all came from your childhood upbringing whether you have really overbearing parents, absent parents, maybe had guardians. Different things that happened, put that defense mechanism in place to hold your ego. So for me, I’m a type eight. So my ego is this powerful person, and my defense mechanism helps hold that mask in place. So each of us has that. There is no one type that’s best or worst. They’re all equal on the playing field. We all have our strengths and weaknesses. And this is a way to look at that in a way that you can grow. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Ooh. Already I’m like, okay, the defense mechanism piece, I don’t know if I’ve seen that in my Enneagram results. I feel like I’m diving into a very specific question, but it’s top of mind. And then I have so many other places I want to go with this. But is the defense mechanism piece standard in our result, or is that something that once you go a little bit deeper, you’ll understand? 

Nicole Saunders

I don’t know if it’s standard in a test result, but if you’re working with someone like myself or another Enneagram coach in typing, they’ll help you through that. So with seven, your defense mechanism is rationalization. So it’s like, I didn’t hit 6-figures but I hit 80K. Okay, well that’s great. But sevens are very positive people. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Sometimes I feel that people might pay me for my amazing rationalizations skills. I am the ultimate reframer now. Oh, but no, it’s funny. It can be a good thing or a bad thing. You can see with the positive piece, but also, we can rationalize the bad things. Ooh, interesting to keep it positive because the negative is so uncomfortable for me that I can absolutely see them. 

Nicole Saunders

Yes, so each type is like your Achilles heel. So I want to be this powerful person as an eight. And so I have this energy that I didn’t even realize for a long time. But then I realized, oh, I’m powerful. I’m trying to show this but it might be intimidating to people. So people are scared of me or whatever. So having to realize that and how I can, not to be a fake person but to dial it a little bit, so people are more comfortable with me in the beginning. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Interesting. Okay, so this is something that is based on our childhood and it’s to help us understand ourselves better, understand other people better. How does this compare? I geek out on all of these personality tests and assessments. How does this fit in with Myers-Briggs or any of the other ones out there?

Nicole Saunders

I think this one, obviously, I’m a little biased now. 

Jaclyn Mellone

I really like this one, I think it’s the best. And you’re not the only one biased. 

Nicole Saunders

And I studied a lot of films. With my background in higher education, I’ve used True Colors. I’ve used Myers-Briggs. I’ve used Strengths Class. But Enneagram, you get both your strengths and your weaknesses, or growth areas that you can work on. It also helps to understand more people. So yes, there are subtypes, there are wings. There are all these different things that the Enneagram can give you. But at the end of the day, it’s not in type. Nine types that you can understand. You don’t have to have 16 of Myers-Briggs, or I think there are 27 strengths with Strengths Class.

But I like this one because it really does help me understand people. It gives you that empathy. It gives you ways that you can grow in your self-mastery as a human, both personally and professionally. Myers-Briggs have too. I do like the introvert versus extrovert piece because I can see that 7s have met 2, 7, 2, or introverted. Most sevens like me are extroverted. But it’s so interesting to me to see those kinds of overlaps. And then, of course, there are human designs in Astrology. But I’m not familiar with those as much. Although, they’re interesting. I love learning about different things. But I think for me, this is what matches with my brain the best.

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes. And over the years, I had ones that are favorites. Enneagram is definitely one of my favorites. And I think the reason for that is so much of what I work on with myself and in our Go-To Gal community here with clients, students, podcasts, what have you is mindset-related. And I think so many of our mindset struggles are rooted in our childhood experiences. And so, there’s this connection that I just recently put together of like, oh, maybe that’s why I connect so strongly with Enneagram. But there’s something there with that, whatever it was in childhood, that shaped us. And these mindset struggles that we carry with us into our adult lives and our businesses as building personal brands that are based on ourselves, it’s freaking personal. And so this stuff is bound to come up. 

Nicole Saunders

Yes. Well, you’ll love this Jaclyn. So recently, I am in a program and it’s very mindset-heavy. And we’ve worked together before and I was always like, I don’t really need that. Whatever. I’ll do it. Okay, sure. But I realized through the Enneagram that I thought mindset was about confidence. I was like, I have confidence. I can go do anything. I don’t need a mindset. Tell me something to do, I’ll go do it. But I realized that mindset is so much more than that. It’s like training your brain on things and how you see things, and not just confidence. It was just so funny when I had that epiphany in the last couple of weeks, I was like, oh, I guess I do need the mindset. So any other Enneagram eights, if you’re like, I don’t need the mindset. You probably do. 

Jaclyn Mellone

So as an Enneagram eight, now, I guess I’ll try to explain this more in the intro when I record it so I don’t have to spend a lot of time now. But with my quiz, with our, Which movie villain is sabotaging your success? quiz, I got about halfway through with creating the framework for it. And that’s when I had separated into three different results, and some were made the connection, I think I was trying to look for a personality assessment that fit this. And that’s when I stumbled upon an Enneagram triad, which I really was not at all familiar with before. And realizing how well the three different ways that I saw my clients, my friends, my peers, struggling with self-sabotage, the three ways that we’re showing up really paralleled the Enneagram triads, and there’s not a ton. I really tried to look as far as I could to get information about the triads. And I found a little, there’s not a ton out there. But that really helped me firm up my own analysis of this self-sabotage. I think hearing you say with Enneagraman eight, yes. And like with our quiz, it’s the Miranda result. 

The way I say this, Miranda’s sabotage style is she distorts your instinct. And so you’re not necessarily being like, oh, I don’t have the confidence to do this. But you’re going to be like, I’m going to fire that client, or I’m going to quit that thing, or I’m going to drop the launch in the middle of it because that instinct is distorted. And so you’re not feeling it in terms of that. Where we would think of, oh, like I’m not good enough to do this. But your instinct gets totally out of whacked where normally, your instinct is your superpower as an eight. 

Nicole Saunders

I’m over here laughing because I’m like, yep, definitely got Miranda. And yep, that’s definitely true because eights are so easy to fly off the handle. Oh, I made a decision. Oh, I’ll take quick action, because we get angry and we just burn it. It’s just energy. We just got to move it through our system. Where other types are the same in the gut triad or the body triad, whichever term you prefer. But within that triad, so ones are also in the same triad and they think of anger as being bad. They’re like, oh, anger. That’s not a good thing because they’re perfectionists. Things are either good, bad, right, wrong. And being angry is bad. Bad to them, so they use the word frustration or irritation instead of anger.

But yes, each triad has its own core emotion that they’re dealing with. And just to hear you talk about the instinct of, oh, but I can just go do this. Yes, just let me take Miranda priestly of it. I’m going to fire a client, and then I’m oh, maybe I shouldn’t have fired that client because I don’t have a client to replace it. So it happens. And that’s how you learn. That’s the beauty of all of this. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Totally, totally. So we did skip over for anyone not familiar with triads, which are not really talked about as much. What are the triads? I can try to explain it, but I’m sure you’re going to explain it way better than I am. So I’m going to pass the mic over to you on this one. 

Nicole Saunders

Okay, so within the Enneagram, there are nine numbers. You break that down into three. There are three triads. So two, three, and four in the heart center triad, and they laid with emotional intelligence. And basically, that center, that heart center, has three different strategies for creating an image. So the three, they want to be seen as this amazing achiever-person. And we can talk about this too, Jaclyn, if we have time. But I think a lot of entrepreneurs think they’re threes because they want to achieve. But your true number is the why behind the reason you’re doing things. So threes want to look ambitious. And I won’t go into each type, but there is in that heart center, they’re creating an image of whatever they want people to stay. 

So the three is the center of that. Then we have the head center. So five, six, and seven, and they all have strategies to respond to fear. And sevens typically, and say seven because Jaclyn’s a seven. They don’t even think about fear because they’re so chasing pleasure and excitement and stimulation that fear is not something that they’ve recognized that they deal with. But it is a core emotion of that type, and then the body center. So again, we have these strategies for dealing with anger and with control. And for me as an eight, I don’t want to be controlled. And I just look at anger as energy. I don’t think it’s bad. I don’t think it’s good. But anger is the emotion I access the easiest. And that’s what pushes me to take action. So I’ve had to train myself on how to be patient, how to sit back, how to take more thought and more deliberation in making a decision instead of being like, oh, that person pissed me off. Let’s go and binge on or have a bingeful moment or whatever. Or this person was mean to my sister, I’m going to go to whatever because I’m a mama bear like that. But yes, each of the three centers has those instincts. And it’s a really cool way to break down the whole Enneagram, and it can also help with typing. I know we’re going to talk about this too, but mistyping happens. We’ve both been mistyped. But looking at the core emotion in the center can help you figure out your type two.

Jaclyn Mellone

Absolutely. Absolutely. Just to wrap up the triads, I think as you’re figuring out, I hadn’t thought of it like that, that it can be something to help you figure out what your type is because, spoiler alert, the quiz results are not always accurate which we will get you in a second. So the triads are part of the framework that I’ve used for this quiz, which has helped to be like, okay, that’s the sabotage style of different people. And so I don’t talk about it, I mean I’m talking about it now but it’s not an Enneagram quiz and I’m not an Enneagram coach. But for me, what I can understand is what someone’s default sabotage style is, one, that’s going to help them get some results for themselves as they’re coming into our world here if you will. But also it helps me understand them faster.

So I go back to what you were saying at the beginning. This is such a great tool to not only understand yourself, but people around you, the more I can understand about my clients, the faster I can support them. It speeds that relationship a little bit. So I really see how this is a great tool, not just for ourselves or our team members, but with working with clients too even for someone who isn’t like, for you clearly, as an Enneagram coach. But really, I could see across the board whatever type of work you’re doing, if you are working with clients in any capacity where there’s a level of intimacy. If it’s a course, and there are a hundred people in there, you probably don’t need to know. But if you’re in a group coaching program or one-on-one, whether it’s done for you, consulting, coach, whatever it is, I can see where this can really be a big asset. 

Nicole Saunders

Yes. If you work with people, and I think I love the word you used, I’m going to steal it from marketing. But the intimacy level,  if you don’t understand why somebody is doing something, you can’t guide them to make a better decision or make improvement or grow whether it’s personally or professionally, the beauty of this, and I just get so excited about it because I know there’s this ripple effect. I’m not just impacting the client and their clients, I’m impacting their entire life because it goes to their relationships. It goes to, hey, I couldn’t be checking out the grocery store and this cashier is rude to me.

Well, maybe they’re not trying to be rude on purpose. Maybe they’re just one, maybe they’re introverts. But two, maybe they’re an Enneagram eight and they’re really intimidating, and you just don’t get it. Or maybe you’re an Enneagram two and you just want this person to like you, and they don’t even care. They’re just like, this is my job. I’m just here to bring up groceries. That’s why I get so excited about it because it’s so much deeper. It’s so much more impactful than just one person. It ripples.

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes. Okay, side note, but as you’re talking, I’m just picturing that. And I’m not going to try to imitate her voice because I will mess it up and embarrass myself. But there’s that real where she’s like, I’m not intimidating. You’re intimidated. I feel like that’s your theme real. Instead of a theme song, is this the air over in that we have theme real? But I feel like that would be the Enneagram eight, theme real.

Nicole Saunders

Yes, and it’s so funny because the first time somebody told me that I was like, mindblown. I was literally speechless. I was like, what do you mean that I’m intimidating? I smile, and not really don’t smile that often. But I was like, what do you mean I’m intimidating? And I thought maybe it’s just because she’s a freshman, I’m the sorority chapter president. This is recruitment. But now, looking back at everything I’m like, oh, I am just intimidating in everything. I’m not an intense person. And people were like, yes, you are. It’s not that I’m trying to be emotionally intense or physically intense, it’s just the presence. It’s the energy I bring. I’m not trumped on to do it. It just happens, and that’s why the Enneagram is such a vital tool, a vital map, a vital framework. My certification person told us not to call it cool because it’s not something you use as a ridge. So I’m trying to work on my language. 

Jaclyn Mellone

And that’s something we use as a wrench. So you were “mistyped.” I hit, and I don’t know how you originally typed so I want you to talk about that. And I took multiple quizzes. All of them came up three for years and years and years. And it took me a while to figure out that I was not an Enneagram three. So what was your experience with that? What were you originally typed as? 

Nicole Saunders

So I was typed as a four. I did a lot of quizzes, tests, and all these online things. I never paid for a thing because it was like, I know myself. I have this background. I’m very self-aware blah, blah, blah, and I was to an extent. But I also, funny enough, lived in denial. Hello, Enneagram eight defense mechanism. And I always was related to that, but I didn’t feel like I don’t love conflict. I don’t chase conflicts. But I am not intimidated by conflict. Some people will just shrivel up like a roly-poly or like I can’t, I have to hide under a rock. And I’m just like, whatever. I’m trying not to be aggressive, but I am such a mama bear. I am just very protective of my students. So with the defense mechanism, it’s funny because, hello, I was in denial about it. But I am the four and the eight are both in the intensity triad with the six. So if you keep getting that, oh, I’m intense. People tell you that you’re intense. You’re probably one of those four times. But I realized that my background, so I had to train myself to be vulnerable, to be emotionally intelligent. There was all of this stuff for my higher education days because my access was very easy, hey, I’m angry and flying off the handle. This is not working. One may get pissed off or whatever, but I’m a very creative person. I love things being unique. And I’m an artsy person. I actually was going to be an Art Major in college and undergrad which didn’t happen. So I thought, oh, okay. Yes, I’m creative. Yes, I can access and sit with sadness but my core emotion is anger. And honestly, as I was doing my Ennea-preneur program this summer, when I got a type eight and I was reading about childhood upbringing, I was like, I’m an eight. So I grew up and I will say, my dad is dead now. He’s been dead since March 2020. He didn’t have COVID.

I love my parents. I will say that, but I grew up in a household where my dad was verbally and emotionally abusive to my mom. And as an eight-year-old, I’m trying to be like, spot, dad, you can’t do that. I would stand up and be defensive of my mom. And so that upbringing is what influenced my defense mechanism because I was protecting my mom, the justice for it. And it’s funny because my sister is also an eight, or that she claims she leads with an eight. I don’t think she’s any other type. I think she is truly an eight. But I’m not sure what was different because she didn’t stand up. She was a daddy’s girl growing up, and she still is, but. And of course, I told my dad, hey, I forgive you for everything before he died. And we had a really good relationship in the end. I had a good childhood, but there were moments of trauma there, I think. And I didn’t realize that until I was a 30-year-old adult. 

Anyway, that can help you understand that too. So that’s not asked on a quiz or a test. And honestly, some of these online things are only 65% accurate and haven’t even been validated scientifically. So you have to be really careful with those results. And then if you get results and it just doesn’t sit right, you have to explore more. I also think part of it is when you take this test and you’re like, oh, I want to be this. Oh, this sounds more like me. That’s my ideal. You have to be true. How is this actually me? The other thing about the test is they don’t take in voiced inflections. They don’t take in body language, and that can be really telling of your type. The other part and I’ll let you go next, Jaclyn, but I thought, oh, I’m heart-centered. I have intuition. I’m very in tune with this. Then I realized after I was like, oh, I’m actually an eight. That’s gut. That’s body knowledge. That’s not a heart thing. So yes, I think my background in higher ed really taught me how to be a nice person. Not that eights aren’t nice, it’s just we have to work on our want-ness or intimidation, whatever. So having that background really helped me expand into my emotional intelligence of the heart center. But that’s what happened to me. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Which makes so much sense. And hearing you break that down, it’s like, okay. And most of us are not going to be teaching a program about this where we would have that opportunity. So I’m glad we’re talking about that now because just because you took a test and you got a result. So I got the result of an Enneagram three multiple times, and I had peers reinforcing that like, oh yes. Of course, you’re a three. You’re like, oh, I bet you a three kind of thing. And so it felt like it fit. And when I look back at it, I resonate so much with what you were saying in terms of that I’m artsy and I got into this stuff. I was acting a certain way and I could probably have a whole therapy session on why. That model I saw of success was acting like that achiever and so much. So I thought I was a three, I’m actually an Enneagram seven. And I think part of what kept me from even seeing the seven as an option is the stereotype of a seven.

The stereotype of a seven is a single person who travels the world with a backpack. Do you know what I’m talking about? I feel like the image of a seven is always a person by themselves with a hiking stick and a backpack, and you see a tent in the background. It’s like an adventurer. 

Nicole Saunders

That is not my stereotype of a seven. My stereotype of a seven is somebody who’s almost like a balloon with confetti. They’re just like a party all the time. Even so, that’s not really a seven either. It’s just funny how we have these preconceptions or these, how we perceive people based on type. And I’m faulting you because we all have our own things. But that’s not what we should do with Enneagram. Well, Nicole’s an eight, she can be a bitch or whatever. Sorry, if you have to bleep that out. I don’t know about your podcasting thing. 

Jaclyn Mellone

No, you’re good. 

Nicole Saunders

You can’t use it as an excuse, and you can’t stereotype people. And I think that’s what turns a lot of people off from Enneagram or even other personality types. I’m not saying that you’re doing that. I think it was just funny that we’re like, oh, this is how I picture a seven and this is how I picture seven. But yes, I can see that thirst, that quest for wonderless because it’s exciting and it’s stimulating, and it’s new and I’ve never been here. Suddenly, I want to go on a trip to Havasupai Falls. Whatever that word, I can say that. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Oh my God. First of all, I did not want to go on that trip. That was on my husband’s. 

Nicole Saunders

Because you’re like, Nicole, how do I break in my chocos? And I was like, you need to wear them.

Jaclyn Mellone

So yes. And even that trip, that’s all my husband. I enjoyed it, but that’s not what I’m signing us up for. So sometimes the imagery or it’s fun to follow different Instagram accounts that talk about Enneagram. But if it’s too stereotyped, it’s easy to not identify the one that you actually would identify with. So for me, what helped me realize that I was mistyped was two of the people that were closest to me. So first it was Jessica, it was Jessica Stansberry. We took the test around the same time and I was like, oh yes. She’s like, I’m a three. And I’m like, oh, I’m a three too. And she was like, you are not a three. And I was offended. Like, you don’t think I achieve enough? 

Nicole Saunders

And that’s such an eight thing for her to say that you’re not a three. 

Jaclyn Mellone

And later, we discovered she’s an eight which is hilarious, and that neither of us was three. But she knew me well enough to know that one, there were some distinct differences between the two of us in how we operate. And also, to just see that disconnect with me not being a three. But I was like, no. I’m offended that you don’t even think I’m a three. I probably start rationalizing all of the reasons that I am a three. It was so funny. So I honestly didn’t think about it again since then. And it wasn’t until years later that I was talking about the Enneagram with my best friend since second grade who’s a photographer and has an amazing photography business here locally. And she was getting into Enneagram and I was like, oh yes, I’m a three. She’s like, there’s no way that you’re a three. And I’m like, wait, what?

And so it was interesting to me that two of the people that know me the best were immediately able to spot me because they know my motivations. They know a little bit more about the behind-the-scenes, not just what the output that may be that other people would see. But that inner dialogue, that inner stuff that isn’t visible to other people. And for both of them to reflect that back, I’m like, okay, I got to dig in here. So if somebody is listening, what are some signs that you think maybe that they might be mistyped? I wanted to share our stories because I didn’t necessarily think that I was mistyped. But once I went back and did, I was like, oh, okay. The motivators over three are really not at all what motivates me. And I think what really helped me figure out what I was, because of course, when you start with somebody who’s like, maybe you’re a two, maybe you are a three and you’re just a different kind of three, and all of those conversations. But what really, I guess, was probably the underlying thing for me was with the seven of the avoiding negative emotion is what I just resonated with so much. And when I looked at that, the core fear of the other results, nothing else really resonated the way that it did. 

Nicole Saunders

Yes. So I think looking at those is a good starting point. So knowing that you can be mistyped on tests, so if you’re not resonating, that’s okay. Go through the next top two scores and see if those resonate a little bit more. So that can happen. Definitely, I think in the US we have these three overlay of our country because we are raised to be workaholics. We are raised to continue to climb the corporate ladder. We are entrepreneurs who are, oh, I hit six figures. What’s next? Oh, I need to hit seven figures. I need to hit 24 figures, or whatever the number, it’s constantly not enough. We constantly want to chase. But look at the why behind that. A lot of people have been mistyped as threes that are entrepreneurs. I have a friend who’s actually a five and she said that she thought that she was a three because she likes learning. And she thought maybe she was doing it for achievement, but then once she actually sat and thought about it, she was learning and invested in that because she didn’t want to appear incompetent, which is the core fear of the five.

So deep dive into that, if it doesn’t sit with you or maybe it does, but don’t rush into being like, I must type myself today. You can take your time. And don’t feel bad if you’re like, oh, I’m in Enneagram four, and then six months later, you’re like, actually I’m an eight. That’s okay. Nobody’s over here being like, oh you didn’t pass the Instagram whatever person. They’re like, no, but Jaclyn always says, nobody gives out expert crowns. Nobody’s giving out Enneagram crowns. It’s okay. Take your time. Talk to somebody. If you want to invest in a typing session, do that. There is no, again, best or worst type. And mistyping happens. 

Travis, my husband took the test multiple times. It’s different tests. It kept getting two. I was like, you are not a two. I thought he was a six. He’s a nine. I did a typing session with him the other week. On a Friday night because I’m such a nerd. But I was like, oh, you’re a nine, I thought it was a six, which makes sense because nine and six are very connected. So yes, it’s very easy to get mistyped. 

Jaclyn Mellone

So yes, so I would behold off on that Enneagram tattoo. That’s our final advice, maybe not with the tattoo right now. But it’s good to stay open about it because I really thought I was a three for years, at least three years. Now, I wasn’t listening to conversations like this because that probably would have opened me up to look more into it sooner. But yes, I think it’s good to dive in a little deeper because the more you know, the more you know. This is a really hard question. So I don’t know if your certification gave you a simple answer for this, but I think it’s important to bring it up because of the conversation we’re having.

So much of this is rooted in our childhood. You mentioned when you’re going through it there was some childhood trauma there. What point of somebody is going through this themselves, where they should be like, you know what, this is bringing up some stuff. I should contact someone. Or is there something that you look for when you’re working with a client with this of, where’s that line where it turns into, okay, I think it’s good for you to go talk to a counselor or a therapist, and this is beyond personal development? 

Nicole Saunders

Yes. So I think counseling and therapy are helping you process your past, so trauma that’s coming up or things that may be triggering to you. So I don’t look at my upbringing as triggering. It’s something processed, and it can be talked about. But if that is triggering for you, maybe you had some very traumatic incident happen in your life, and that keeps coming up as you’re going through Enneagram or you’re working with a coach in any aspect. Oh, this is coming up. Maybe I need to call somebody who is skilled in therapy, who is licensed in therapy. I’m not licensed in therapy. Certification in the Enneagram does not make you a therapist. Yes, I have counseling skills because of my master’s degree. But I’m not skilled at helping somebody through trauma. Or I can see signs like if somebody is talking about suicide and having ideation on that like, okay, let’s walk over to the counseling center. That’s what I used to tell my students. Okay, we can walk over together. We’re just going to look like we’re going to a meeting or whatever, nobody will know.

But if that keeps coming up, that’s your sign. If it’s bringing this emotional really heavy baggage, that’s your sign. What coaching should be is what’s happening now and how you can be better in the future. Coaching is forward-thinking and how you want to be in the future. So for me, it’s like, okay, I’m really intimidating. How can I quit flying off the handle or whatever? And I keep using that as an example because that’s something I’m working on. So how can I bring more light and joy and moments of calm in my life? That’s what I work on in Enneagram coaching. That was actually what I used for my practice coaching as the practice client. So that is noticing patterns moving forward. How can I bring in those moments of common light instead of some anxiety and this anger, and just whatever? So if you’re focusing on the past and how to unpack that, therapy. Forward-thinking, moving forward, and really wanting to focus on personal and professional development, coaching.

But if you’re working with a really good coach, they’re going to tell you like, hey, I think you might need to go to therapy for this. And therapy is not a bad thing. Just stuck with that stigma aside, it’s a third-party person who is just going to help you process. It’s somebody to talk to. You shouldn’t look at therapy like, oh, I need a therapist. I’m a bad person. No, that’s chemical imbalances in your brain. We can’t control that. It’s science. We can fix it or attempt to fix it, get help for that, but we can’t control it. So don’t feel like you’re a bad human if that is you. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes, a hundred percent. I know, I’ve been really trying to make a more concerted effort to talk about therapy and when to get it or how it’s been beneficial to me because I really want to normalize it. I think it is so powerful for people. And I believe in coaching and I believe in therapy. I think they can really go hand in hand. And it’s just knowing where that pass off is sometimes as both the person in the role, but also the person who may be interacting with other people. But that is right. So I love your breakdown of that. 

So one thing that you’ve mentioned a couple of times now is you working on not being as angry with things or your default response and this and that. And I think that when we take these assessments, it’s like, okay, this is how we are. And I’ve seen that sliding scale at the back where it’s like a healthy seven. Is this unhealthy? And there’s like, I don’t even know how many different versions of healthy and unhealthy. But there are all these different scenarios of where we are on that, which is overwhelming to look at. And I guess, what’s your philosophy around this? But the way I think about it is, okay, what is the trait where it’s like, well that’s me, I just embrace that, versus this is something I want to not do as much or tone down or whatever that healthy maybe scale is? 

Nicole Saunders

Yes, so I think first, and probably one of my biggest takeaways from a certification is instead of using the language of healthy versus unhealthy, that brings a little bit of a stigma with it too. It makes people feel self-conscious and like, oh, I’m not healthy, or that person’s not a healthy blah, blah, blah. Because we all do judge, even though we know we shouldn’t. But when you look at it as a scale, so a bell curve of self-mastery. You could be at any level of that. You could be at, I’m really self-aware so I’m really high on this part of self-mastery. But I’m really not as high on this area of self-mastery. So there are pockets for growth. There are areas where you can bring those pieces. So that’s what I like to look at more. So I think also a lot of people think that they are more masterful of themselves than they actually are sometimes. And there are a lot of pieces to self-mastery. 

We talk a lot about self-awareness. I think entrepreneurship now has been coming along. But you have to be responsible for yourself. You have to have this motivation and emotional maturity. These are not things that you get taught in a classroom. These are not things that are typically even measured. What we are harped on in entrepreneurship is finances, marketing, these hard skills that you can quantify. But more and more research comes out about these soft skills. So emotional intelligence, empathy, self-awareness, conversations, conflict, and that is what is so important about each type and understanding yourself mastery skill or your scale.

So I think that resonates a little bit more, and it makes people feel less like, oh, I’m unhealthy. What does this even mean? But yes, each type is going to display different levels of self-mastery. So in eight who can be vulnerable and know that being weak or needing help doesn’t mean that you’re not still a powerful person, it just means that you’re more self-aware and open to asking for these. And so even a seven who is, maybe they’re just like, oh, I gotta chase this. I gotta chase this. I gotta chase this. Well, some sevens, being more on that high level of assessment, you could be more centered. You can be more grounded. You know, hey, I don’t need to chase everything. I can sit with some pain. I can sit and process this. And maybe that does come from some therapy moments, maybe that does come from some coaching moments. But that is what I look at as using, or really my philosophy around Enneagram self-mastery instead of health versus not health. So yes, I hope that answers your question. 

Jaclyn Mellone

It does. With myself with the seven, I think that it’s the, and really therapy is what opened my eyes to this. And then I started connecting the dots of how it connects with other areas of my life and business and Enneagram too, was just how disconnected I was from such a range of emotions. Because being in that default, shove it down, shove it down, shove it down. And it’s interesting because I am highly empathetic, and can really hold space for other people’s emotions, and can really feel other people’s emotions. But I was also so disconnected from my own emotions for so long. And now, we literally have the feelings we all have in our fridge. And I use it with my kids, but my therapist’s like, he needs a feelings wheel. And I love it because I’m like, okay, this is what I’m feeling like. I identify that emotion, and it’s been really helpful as a tool with the kids too. But that’s where I can see as a seven, I’m still going to always try to avoid that negative emotion. But understanding that if I actually feel it and process it, I can get through it quicker. And in just that level of awareness and the tools to support it, it really helped me still work within my strengths. I don’t look at it as trying to not be who I am. But it’s like playing with that, okay, where is this stopping me from being that full version of myself, and how do we work through that? 

Nicole Saunders

Yes. So that self-observation really helps you become more conscious of your actions, otherwise, we’re just asleep and on autopilot all the time, and not realizing, oh, hey, I’m going through life and I’m doing this. But what’s the impact of that? Because you can make a conscious decision to be like, oh, this is really painful. I’m not dealing with this right now. Okay, but you made that choice consciously instead of just doing it on autopilot. So that’s another beautiful piece of this tool, of this map. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Totally. So there are so many different quizzes. I know maybe we’re not telling people to take a quiz, but even to read results, do you have a favorite site that you like to reference? 

Nicole Saunders

I would say the Rheti Test is the most accurate. I think it’s about 73% accurate or so. It’s R-H-E-T-I, and it’s about $12 for your results. And honestly, that can give you a good starting place. I don’t think tests are bad. I just don’t think they are accurate. And people see, oh, here’s this test. But then you realize, oh, it’s not even scientifically validated. But the Rheti has already been scientifically validated, but you could still get mistyped on it though. So take it with a grain of salt. Take it as a starting point. You can read it. There are tons of books about Enneagram. The Road Back To You is a really good one. Jaclyn, I’m sure you can link an Amazon affiliate link in the comments below, or the show notes. But yes, there are so many cool books. There’s a lot of people out there who are into Enneagram. I think just being careful if some people have knowledge of it, but I don’t know how in-depth their knowledge is. And I think that can cause confusion too with things. So just make sure you’re working with somebody who knows what they’re talking about and not just posting funny memes.

Jaclyn Mellone

Oh, excellent advice. Okay. I could jam with you about this all day long, but I know we gotta wrap up because we’re already over time. So how can we stay in touch with you?

Nicole Saunders

So come find me on Instagram. It’s probably the best place. I have my DMs open. I will answer them unless you’re spamming up or trying to get me on Yahoo Top 10. But come over there. I’m @nicolesaunderscoach. We can hang out, and then I can send you to all my fun stuff. I have a free Enneagram mini-course. It’s a five-day thing, so you can grab that. If you want that, it’s at saundersays.com/five day. So if you just want a little bit more information about the Enneagram, and it also has some journal prompts in there which is really good for mindset. So I’m like a journaling person now working on my mindset every day. I think things could be very different if I had implemented them when I first worked with Jaclyn back three years ago. I’m like, oh, I need a mindset and journal. No, but here we are. It’s never too late to start. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Never too late. And I think that’s good for people to hear too, then maybe have hives reactions of thinking of like, I don’t journal or I don’t do that stuff. Open that maybe, this is not a finite trait that you are you’re born with. And there’s the ability to become a journaling person. I love when we assign an identity to things that sometimes can also be pushed people off of it. If you’re like, well, I’m not a journaling person. You have that strong health belief. 

So true. All right. Well, thank you so, so much. And I love that you have this, I didn’t even know about the free five-day mini-course, so I have to go check that out myself. 

Nicole Saunders

Yes, for sure. Well, thank you so much for having me, Jaclyn. It’s been a blast.

Jaclyn Mellone

It was. 

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