How the Online Education Space is Rapidly Changing | Insights + Predictions with Destinee Berman

Jaclyn Mellone

Welcome to Go-To Gal episode number 176. As always. I’m your host, Jaclyn Mellone. And today I’m dusting off my metaphorical, metaphor. It sounds Iike I said “metaphor”, metaphorical, I don’t know, metaphorical. I need to enunciate better, apparently.My metaphorical magic eight ball and shaking it up.

And not really.Although I guess it’s metaphorical, so I guess that’s the whole point of not really. I thought  If I were to shake this metaphorical magic eight ball, I feel it would say and say “What is this state of our online business, our online education space?Is it changing? Is it staying the same?”

I feel like I’d get that little, blue lit up upside down triangle coming back at me with like ” Yes.  Your prediction is accurate.” Or I don’t know. What did the actual magic eight ball say? Options look good. Looking at ones online right now. I don’t think that’s a thing. Science point to “Yes”.

Yes. Science point to “Yes “, that things are changing. I don’t know if you feel it. I definitely have been seeing and feeling it for a while. When I saw that this was something that, Destinee, our guest today was talking about, it really peaked my interest because I’ve been thinking about these things, processing it a little bit of like “What is the state of our industry and how is it changing?”

“How is it evolving and where is it going next?” I always like thinking about things like that and having those conversations with my clients and friends and mentors and peers and all of the things,right? But let’s have those conversations on the podcast because I’m sure you were thinking about them too.

And if you’re not thinking about them, let’s get thinking about it.You want to be looking into the future and noticing what’s happening now and how is it starting to shift and change, so you can not that you’re going to base all of your business decisions off of the prediction.

But, you do want to have that outlook of “Where are things going to next?” You can if you want to weave those things into your business. Now, maybe you have an online course or program now, maybe you don’t, and you’re thinking about adding it as a revenue stream. Either way. I think you’ll be really just, I don’t know, thought provoked is that, can I use it in that tense by this conversation?

And maybe it’s going to validate some of the same things that you’ve been thinking you’re seeing. Maybe it’s going to open your eyes up to something you hadn’t thought before, and I even just think having these conversations or listening to these conversations gets your mind to just start thinking a little bit more critically about what’s going on, seeing opportunities you may have missed, or at least plant those seeds.

As things are happening around you in the coming days, weeks, months, and years, you can start putting some of these pieces together and noticing these patterns and trends for yourself. I’m not going to get into it too, too much, but I’m excited to share this conversation with you. Destinee and I took it from a whole bunch of different angles to just pull it back and be like “Okay. What’s the state of the industry now?

What are we seeing? What are we feeling? What are we thinking? Where is it going?” All the things. But before I get to the actual conversation, let me formally introduce you to Destinee. Destinee Berman is a seven figure Launch Strategist who specializes in working with offline business owners, entrepreneurs, experts, and educators to market and monetize their courses.

Her clients benefit from her innovative and modern approach to marketing as well as her 15 years of prior experience running large scale marketing campaigns in Silicon Valley for brands like Twitter, HP, and Microsoft. Through her courses, She has taught hundreds of students in 23 countries across the globe.

Destinee’s expertise has been featured in media outlets, including Business Insider, Forbes, Greatist, Digital Marketer and more. She is also the host of her forthcoming podcast, Make the Shift. All right, let’s get to it. Here’s my conversation with Destinee. 

Destinee, I’m so excited to have you here today. 

Destinee Berman

Same here. I’m thrilled to be here.

Jaclyn Mellone

Before we dive into you and everything you have going on now, take us back to when you were growing up. What were you the Go-To Gal for back then? 

Destinee Berman

You know, what’s funny was when I saw this question, what dropped into mind was when I was in Junior high school. I was the person that friends or acquaintances would come to me if they wanted a creative solution.

So they were trying to figure out the problem and they wanted a resourceful, creative way to address it, they would come to me. And I didn’t realize it at the time that I would then be using that skill for work in business, but that’s always stuck with me, and it’s something that I actually enjoy doing, coming up with an idea for something that may seem challenging.

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes. I love that. You know, this is something I’ve been thinking about with my own kids. Do you think this is off topic? But because you bring it up, I have to ask. Do you think that is just the way you are or was there something in your childhood that really helped you develop that creative problem solving skill set?

Destinee Berman

I think it’s a combination. If you believe in astrology, we look at genes. There is an element inside the way I operate inside my blueprint, if you will. That is towards resourceful problem solving. I mean, I think that’s in every assessment tasks. I’ve been a creator, and I like this one and whatnot.

So I do believe that shows in how I’m made up. I was born in an environment where we did have to be creative, where we did have to be resourceful. And so it’s an element of nature and nurture. That’s what I believe. 

Jaclyn Mellone

That makes a lot of sense. And yes, with two little ones that’s something I really want to instill in them, kindness, but also just that resourcefulness.

Yes. I think if we start that from a young age, but you’re right, there are certain things that some of us are just innately have in us. So developing those even further than you’re able to quadruple down on your strings. Fast forward to today, tell us what do you do and who do you help?

Destinee Berman

I’m a Digital Entrepreneur. I spent about 15 years before this working at companies in San Francisco and Silicon Valley. And I wanted to work for myself, and that was a decision that I had to really choose because it was a lot to leave that world. Now, it’s that six years and I focus on helping business owners and experts and specialists be able to scale their life’s work with online courses in schools. I feel really lucky to be working in this industry at this time where things have only expanded, and online education and learning has become so widely received at all levels of institution. But yes, I really believe in self-education. I really believe in personal growth.

And I think that learning online is one of the ways to do so. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Absolutely. Now, one of the things that I find really interesting about what you do is how you position it as adding a revenue stream to an existing business. What does that look like? I guess, at what point in businesses should people think about.

Adding a revenue stream? Yes, I guess let’s start there. At what point in business should someone think about? ‘Cause it’s almost like a side hustle to your business, but it’s also important to diversify and to have multiple income streams. When do you think is the best time to be thinking about that?

Destinee Berman

So there was pre COVID and there was, COVID, twice. During COVID, I think we all saw as business owners, regardless of what kind of business you’re in, you need a digital revenue stream to strengthen and to keep your business going. But even before that, what we’re seeing with a lot of educators, practitioners, service-based providers, even speakers, and they’re typically maxed out.

If you hit a point where you’re  maxed out  in your existing business, you can’t take on any more one-on-one clients. You can’t do any more workshops around the world. You can’t do any more key notes speaking around the world. Well, then it’s time to really leverage that content, and that expertise that you have. I think that one of the things that comes up for busy business owners and individuals is, well, there’s no enough time. But what happens is that if you’re willing to invest in the time upfront, It’s just like, I don’t know. It’s like compounding interests where you’re taking. Well, you’re spending time delivering today. Putting it into a format that can now leverage your time endlessly, so it requires upfront  to create that ongoing revenue stream. 

Jaclyn Mellone

So true. What type of models, business model? What would these different revenue streams be? Are you talking online courses? Is there a wide variety? Do you focus on one type? Is there a type that you think is the best? What does that look like?

Destinee Berman

Yes, it’s a broad topic. Because we have the different course models and then of course you get a different go-to market strategies of how you want to even get it out there. But typically, what I recommend is starting with a course that is closest to how you serve your existing clientele, your customers, and you start with a course. And then what I specialize is in building it out to a bigger programs school. So it starts with one course launch then how can we build this into either vaguer online program or adding online program. And typically my clients have an offer stack within their school. It doesn’t mean that you have to go out and face five different programs. It’s actually started with one into two or three core offers. And now you’ve got this education platform that serves adjacent to your existing business.

And many times you end up shipping over to mostly online or keeping some of the offline one-to-one work, but now you have freedom that you have options. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Now, when you say school, can you just describe that a little bit more detail? I see the different offers, but is someone enrolling and they have access to all of this? Or are they doing one offer and then you have another offer for them after that?

What does that look like for it to be defined as a school?

Destinee Berman

I love that question. And I always say that I’m probably more casual in how I define school. I have a lot of clients and students who have say the level one and the level two, where you have to do what we’ll want to move into level two. I’ve had some clients have I wrote out certification programs and work professional development.

But when I say school, I mean, a core program that has different variations, that concern different segments of your audience. So an entry level, a deeper more things, and then sometimes a more B to B professional certification track. 

Jaclyn Mellone

No, that makes a lot of sense in how you defined it. And I think even that mindset shift, as you’re adding on another revenue stream of thinking of it like a school can help someone visualize that, adding it school to our business and maybe take it a little bit more seriously, but also think about that student experience and journey and how the content you’re creating is really helping them like a school would.I think that’s a great terminology because I haven’t heard it used exactly like that before. Very creative. All of this to say, I love the contribution you’re making to this industry, and I know a lot has changed. COVID. I don’t think we’re quite post COVID yet, but now we’re  on the other side, maybe hopefully of this bell curve situation and things are certainly different now than they were six months ago or a year ago and are going to continue to be different. 

Looking at 2021 and the next six months, maybe a little bit longer, what are you seeing changes that have happened this year that are still happening in this industry.  

Destinee Berman

One, I think that based on what I can see, the creator economy, the knowledge industry, it’s only going to get fuller and bigger in a good way.

There are more people coming online to become creators. More people coming online to teach and to leverage their professional experience. The question is then, well, when I become an online teacher or an online creator, the questions that matter of “How?” and “When?” Because to some degree, as an expert, as a professional, we will all have an online course in the next five, maybe seven years.

And if we look at all the different technology in schools that are coming out every day to support the micro entrepreneur, all of this falls under the passion economy, right? So you have people who want to pursue their passions who have the expertise and who want to teach online. And I think it’s really incredible and it’s really exciting.

At the same time, we also need to figure out for ourselves. One, are we committed to doing this? And two, again, it’s not a matter of ‘yes’ or ‘no’. It’s a matter of ‘when. And then it becomes “Okay. Well, how do I want to do this? Do I want to become a social media influencer building audience, or do I want to be launching my courses and my programs, building up this revenue stream, and then how I want to go about it efficiently?” 

I feel like this is where the conversation is now driving and then choosing to clear strategies to one or two clear approaches that you’re going to stick to because one of the biggest things I see is people started to try everything. That’s like in words. Or they’re gone or through. I’m not allowed to watch and Facebook and YouTube and Instagram, and a pod.. No, that’s not going to work. We just don’t have time for that. And one to two channels, one or two approaches and we’re going to stick to an experiment. But I do believe that it is critical to get out the brand more than ever.

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes, I, and I completely agree having been in this industry for a while and seeing the changes and seeing the direction it’s going in, it does feel like there’s more opportunity than ever. COVID perhaps accelerated that. With showing that we can be doing all of this from home. One of the things that I am hearing a lot, there are so many ways we can tackle this.

One of the things I’m hearing a lot is, people, seeing all this growth and thinking that that means it’s a missed opportunity or that it’s too competitive. It’s too saturated. And that maybe if they don’t already have that program launch, that they’ve missed the boat. What do you say to those people?

Destinee Berman

I love where you brought this up. Because indeed, there are a lot of individuals and business owners who are feeling like “Oh, I should have started this five years ago.” Well, guess what? I should have started my YouTube channel two years ago. There’s always something more when doing right when it comes to online. You should’ve watched the podcast. You should have been wrapped in one Instagram. Take your pick.

The good news is, it’s a very normal thought process and we’re online because things were shifting evolve and we run so much. It’s just not possible to be so caught up. Once normal, I’m going to put that aside. Two, there are billions of people online to watch and learn. And there is this concept years ago, the concept was A Thousand True Fans.

There’s a newer concept that’s being discussed now with 100 True Fans. There are more tools. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Tell me about this. I haven’t heard. I am familiar with a Thousand True Fans for someone who doesn’t know if they haven’t heard of that concept before, tell us what that is, but I’m excited about this new concept.

Basically, the concept is: Instead of going out and building this massive email list and building a huge social media following, how can you cultivate and deepen the relationships of a Thousand True Fans so that they are investing in your offers and your services and your programs? But as the online world has gone more, there are more people online.

There are more tools to create engagement online, and there were tools to become creators. Now the discussion is around “How can I create 100 True Fans of higher-paying value and of 100 True Fans that invested a thousand dollars in a year with you?” That’s a hundred thousand dollars, and that to me really is exciting. Because we’re not thinking about going out to pay, okay, I’m going to need hundreds of thousands or even tens of thousands of social media dollars.

It’s about “How can I put a high value engaged creative content that I can now funnel into a purposeful, intentional offer? So just going back to your question though, in terms of, you got billions of people. For you to have a six, seven-figure online business requires creating a teeny portion of true engaged brands who want what you need.

It’s not too late if anything that tools have caught up technology that has come and looked at the strike as a company. So my pushback on that is that it’s not too late and it’s a normal thought process, and the time to get started is now.

Yes, I couldn’t agree more. I hadn’t heard that put as the 100 True Fans, but I think that 1000 True Fans concept was initially developed for maybe more of the music industry or artist industry, right? And it was like “Okay. If you have these 1000 True Fans that are going to go to how many of your concerts and they’re going to buy your t-shirt or they’re going to buy your element, they’re going to buy all this stuff.

Let’s say they’re going to spend a hundred dollars over the course of the year. That’s your hundred thousand dollars. For you to flip that around and say “Okay. No.” But if you’re able to offer more value in charge a thousand dollars, which isn’t even considered a high ticket in our industry. Hearing that breakdown and saying “Wow! Okay. Well, taking this math, if you had a hundred true fans and you were selling something at $10,000 like there’s your million, right?  

These aren’t crazy numbers and being able to have that housing dollar offer or that $10,000 offer, you don’t even need as big of an audience. I think what a lot of us have realized over the years, too, with the 1000 True Fans, which is also true for the 100 True Fans concept is you need more followers and more subscribers than that. To have a 1000 True Fans doesn’t mean having a thousand email subscribers, right? You may have 10,000 or 20,000, or depending on some, those, and even a hundred thousand subscribers to have those thousand that are opening all your emails that are really engaged, depending on how engaged your audience is.

You need usually a bigger audience than that for that piece to be really engaged. So you shrinking down that number to a hundred is like, you can have a thousand followers and a hundred of them could be that category, right?

Destinee Berman

Exactly. And I would hundred percent agree with that. I mean, to have a hundred thousand fans, you don’t need that big of a list.

And in fact what’s really exciting for existing business owners to already have clients and customers and students, especially if you’re teaching or whatnot. You actually have a bigger fan base, to monetize with online offers than you realize, and I’ve seen this happen so many times in clients or members inside our programs where they think they don’t have an email list.

I don’t even have anyone on social media. But guess what? You’ve had 500 people that you’ve worked with, one-on-one in the last years. Those people know you trust you and they are ready to buy and you think you can convert a hundred people out of those 500. Yes we can. And so that’s how we want to be thinking about our audiences and they’re in our communities.

Instead of feeling like “I just don’t have anyone online.” We have more people than we realize. 

Jaclyn Mellone

That’s so true. Yes. Looking outside of just the traditional ways, maybe that people are measuring this, because absolutely all those relationships count and that’s such a good way to look at it. Okay. Thinking still about trends in this industry, what else are you seeing?

I have a few things that I’m seeing, but I would love to ask you about, but I’m just curious if there’s anything else that you’re like “Okay. This is definitely a trend that I want to share.” 

Destinee Berman

One is focusing on deeper content with the community. And that’s why I need 102 fans with a higher value. One, providing higher drive who also are creating that higher value customers important. Because I believe that the whole, having a huge course with just thousands and thousands of students inside of a group program that’s shifting away, it doesn’t mean that for some of the top leaders in the industry, who’ve been doing this for a long time that they’re providing the guy. It is nepotism work. But generally, people are looking for more community for more connection and deeper content versus just feeling like they’re lost and see if people inside this group program.

That’s one. Second thing is, engaging with your community and multiple formats. And this does not have to be crazy. It means a short video paired with a short email and paired with say a blog article that is all created from that same point of content. But people need to see you and hear you and learn from you in different ways, more than ever, because there’s also a lot of content on them.

Between trying to capture their attention, retain trying to get them to stick, you want to have, even as the same piece of teaching across multiple formats, more than ever. And for those of you who have launched before, what I would say is if you’ve been a focus on one channel, say Facebook and Instagram, you want to go into YouTube and vice versa, multichannel for the more experienced course launchers, that’s also extremely important for now beyond. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes. I love how you say though, to really nail that one or two first and then expand because it’s overwhelming. And even with the team, especially with the team, it’s overwhelming because it’s like “Who’s doing what and how are you going to do this for me?”

I don’t know if you that’s hard too. So being able to go deep in those one or two platforms and then adding on. But if you are at that point, it does make sense to add another channel. There’s a lot of power in that, but don’t feel like you have to do it right out of the gate because that’s just overwhelming. 

Destinee Berman

Exactly. Either overwhelmed, then you just freeze, and then we don’t do anything, which isn’t helpful to our work items.

Jaclyn Mellone

Exactly. Now I’ve heard a lot of people talk about it’s interesting. For years and years, it’s been niche and then niche down again and then again. This year I’ve heard a lot of people saying not to niche anymore, which scares me. So I’m like, “What does that, what does that even mean?” 

I don’t know. I have some thoughts on this, but I’m like “Okay. Maybe you have a different perspective  I love, that we are a bit newer to each other and you have a different angle on the industry than I do too. ” So it’s good to sometimes put these things together of like “What are you seeing on your side of the internet? Or what are you seeing on yours and see where things overlap?”  What are you seeing in terms of niching?  

Destinee Berman

I think that instead of only thinking about niching down, it’s bout what your specialization is. What I like to say is that “Now if you’re willing to go deeper, you can go bigger.” And the analogies that I like to use are “If you think about how Amazon as a platform started with books over starting with black cars, and there are so many other examples, examples starting with shoes. What we want to think about is “How can we focus on an area of specialization that will have us be known for that?”

And when you specialize, that forces you to go narrow and your niche and who you serve. A common example would be a yoga teacher. There are so many yoga teachers. If we think about someone who’s willing to go specialized yoga for diabetes, that forces us to focus on a specific audience group.

It has to be known for a category and a specialization, and that is much more effective online with so much more content on when these days.

Jaclyn Mellone

I completely agree. I feel like as we have more people out there offering things and sharing their expertise in order for us to stand out in what might feel saturated to be able to be really specific about what we do and who we do it for allows us to stand out and allows us to be that much more referable, say taggable for what it is. And I built such trust in the person who’s investing with us. 

I started to see this trend a couple of years ago. I like to use my cousin as an example because it’s just outside of our industry. Sometimes if I’m sharing a story about a client, it’s a little bit more skewed. I like to use her as an example because it’s just not at all in our industry, she’s a hairstylist. She does my hair, not as often now, as she used to, but back when this first happened, I was there every six weeks.

She had me captive for a couple of hours. She could ask me whatever she wants. She’s wanting to grow on Instagram. And we were talking about it a little bit and I offered to make some introductions for her and told her some people to follow. And when I went back, six weeks later, she had purchased a course on Instagram, like “Oh Who’d you buy it from?” And I’d never heard of this person before. I was like “Oh, okay.” Then at first, I was like “Oh, I wonder why she didn’t go check out this person that I told her about or something. Right. She’s like “Oh. Well, they had a program that was specific for Instagram, for hairstylists.”

I’m like, “That’s it right there.” That is what’s going to be happening across every industry because when someone’s investing in something, they’re like, “Is it going to work for me?” So if you’re able to, with your positioning show “Oh. This literally is going to work for you. You are who we created it for.”

You just have that built-in confidence. It’s going to get the attention and they’re probably willing to pay more for it too because they know it’s specialized information. 

Destinee Berman

Exactly. Hundred percent agree. I love that example.

Jaclyn Mellone

But It’s just so outside of everything about like “Okay, this is happening.” But I will say I’m not producing content for TikTok.

I’m not sure if I will or not. I’m tempted, but I’ve been just consuming content, and a lot of people on there have very weird niches. And I say weird in the most loving way possible, but it sounds like a combination instead of yoga and diabetes or something, it’s like yoga and like Schitt’s Creek. And I’m like “That’s my niche.” Or workout videos to Hamilton, that’s my niche. I’m like “I fit your demographic here.” So I do think in other, I don’t know, outside maybe of the traditional, what we normally see on Instagram content, people are having a little bit more fun and doing different things, I guess, but their niches and other platforms. Have you seen stuff like that? 

Destinee Berman

I agree. I think that takes her, in particular, is it still needs work and his identity so getting shaped and define so their users are also being more experimental, right? Because it is that they were not in that experimental stage just very much like Clubhouse. There you’re trying to figure out and the product still needs to get them scored.

So it’s interesting because our one point Facebook was new and at one point Instagram was new. And then I think as the platform matures, then either the users or the way we use it also shift with it as well. But I would agree that on the newer platforms, it’s very experimental and very narrow because you want to get discovered.

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes. There are probably some industries that just work better than others. It can be like” I teach marketing with Schitt’s Creek memes.” Can that be a niche? Believe me, if I could find a way to make this a Hamilton podcast that was also related to being known as an expert, I would do. I’d be all in.

But with some industries, I think it’s just easier to bring in these other concepts. You get a little bit more creative. Is there anything else that comes to mind of trends that you’re noticing? 

Destinee Berman

Talked about multi-different formats specializing, so thanks for bringing that up and being out there. I think those are, I mean, there’s definitely more, but I feel like those are the key points. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes. One of the things that I’ve been noticing this year as my, and I’m sure because I buy these products that Facebook knows this about me and shows me more of my own reality, so I might be slightly skewed in my own echo chamber of this. But there are a ton of these small digital product offers, these low price templates, or I don’t even know, templates or systems are right for these low price under $50 offers.

What used to be something that someone might charge 500 or a thousand dollars for they’re now offering in a low price product for under $50. And I have one of these myself, which does really well. So I’m seeing this as a trend in it. Part of it feels like it’s democratization of information, but now it’s like even more information overload and it’s interesting to see. Well, how does this impact the course industry?

Because now this information that was just getting saved for these courses, that would have been 500 a thousand or $2,000. I think for a number of years, it was the standard in our industry to charge $2,000 for a course. Now we’re having this saturation of low price offers that might impact that. This is something I’ve been giving some thought to. I’d love to hear your thoughts on that. 

Destinee Berman

A couple of things. One, I do believe that’s why creating that experience of a higher trust program and, or the smaller groups with connection and community. I do think that’s valuable. I think that over time, the next level will be outcome-based courses where there’s more responsibility on both sides to get to the outcomes versus putting offers out there $2,000 and then just kind of what the industry standard is. I think that part of, the need to offer a $37, $27 offer with all this content is one that costs more expensive, so that’s partly response to add cost, to be able to acquire more leads, customers. And two, there is a lot of consequence in the marketplace, and what used to be gated coaching programs. 

Now you can buy, you can buy a Challenge for $97. I’ve tested, paid events at $47, $97, and $197. I do think that there’s value in having someone take out of a credit card and buy content. I, however, don’t believe in giving out all that content for a very low price. Because one, unless it’s a live event, many times they don’t show up, or many times they don’t go through the content, which is true. That’s even for a live event there’s ‘no show’ percentage. 

I believe that it’s important to find that balance between how do we drive that conversion from cold traffic and offer enough guide who content, but also create ways to engage, to get them to consume the content and have proper follow-up sequences, so they move into the next. Otherwise, we’re just putting information out there and will cost and doesn’t add value to anyone’s life.

Jaclyn Mellone

So true. A hundred percent. I’m like “Okay. There are so many places we can go.” But yes. Having people just giving it all the way, especially because it’s true with those low price products, not everyone, but not even close to near everyone. I mean, even with live courses, completion rates are traditionally so low. So when you factor in digital products, it’s an impulse buy. Half the time, people probably even forget that they bought it, and it’s interesting. That is definitely something that’s one of the reasons. My low price offer is for podcast guesting to be a guest on podcasts. We were selling it just passively and then, we’ve started doing it as a living. I guess you could say the event, it’s only  a live challenge because I’m like “Let’s actually do this together.” And it does. We have, our completion rates have soared with it because you’re actually giving people that urgency to prioritize it, to like “This is life.” And they get to keep it. It’s not some pretense, people run it live and they take the content away. But I have found that that helps a lot. 

Destinee Berman

I agree. 

Jaclyn Mellone

That’s good. I’m like, I hadn’t even thought about speaking to the fact that we’re doing it like that now as a strategy, that’s something that’s really working. But no, I think there is. There is something there of how can you, especially if you’re leading into another offer, right? If you’re selling something passive and people aren’t going through it and you want to get them into another offer, that can be a challenge. 

Destinee Berman

Exactly. And I think, for business owners seals, it’s always finding that balance between that active versus passive, right? So I call it a pass, a lead magnet PDF version running on the automation, and then they actively build or is the paid events, the live webinar. We want to find the right balance because it’s not sustainable to be running three, five, eight challenges all the time unless you truly have enough. I know it’s not fake, but at the same time you do need them, and not only be relying on passive events and offers. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes, it’s absolutely that balance. And even if you have the front-end traffic or you are running the ads to get that just with two small children, this is not the lifestyle that does not fit into, it does not fit into the lifestyle.

Destinee Berman

I get it. I have a four-and-a-half-year-old son. He keeps me. 

Jaclyn Mellone

My little guy is turning five very soon, so not much older than yours. And yes, we have to also make sure that we’re creating businesses that we actually want to be running, that we don’t want to be running away from. Sometimes you end up creating a job that you don’t really want an invariant lame.

Okay. Something else you had mentioned about this is the importance of the contrast, of having an offer that is really outcome-focused, that is high touch, high value that they’re having that experience. And I just wanted you to elaborate a little bit more on that because I think that is where the magic is when everyone is selling and giving away information for free or selling it for so cheap information becomes commoditized, but the transformation is really where the value is.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that. What does that look like? 

Destinee Berman

It’s interesting because the one I have all my members writing out some statement for their offering. So we haul the program up and statement and we haven’t worked through a framework because it forces them to distill.

Okay. If someone showed them to do the work, what is the ultimate transformation they’re going through? Whether it’s opening up the relationships, whether it’s self-discovery, whether it’s weight loss. But what’s even more important than that is. There’s a content and there’s a curriculum. Sure. That’s important, but it’s also that support structure.

And while we can’t handhold in a way, we can’t do it for you but I believe that having that container of a six-week program a six-month program builds in that matches the content with a support structure, whether it’s group calls or layering in one-on-one or smaller cohort-based support, then you tie that in with more strategic visionary thinking, that will improve the outcome of that student. And we can’t do it on our own. That’s why we’re signing up to do these courses or these programs. We can’t do it on our own. 

So the question becomes “Well, what is the outcome we want to guide or sooner and clients through and how can we build in leverage points that will support them through this transformation?” 

And now with technology, we can do that. You can build in audio lessons that get triggered. You can build in the right onboarding emails, and we’re not even talking with a future where we’re going to have AI learning that response and based on where you’re at.

We’re not quite there yet. But the point is, is that now that we have all the technology to support our growth and our learning, and so we want to leverage that to create that support the community in addition to the content that will get them to the outcome. But I like to guide all my students and all my members,”What is the outcome that we’re getting them to? Because without that, having a great experience is good, but let’s focus on the outcome. Let’s focused on the results.”

Jaclyn Mellone

That clarity is really important. Is there something like a litmus test for, is that outcome clear enough or desirable enough? Because I also think, well, I guess one other thing that we’ve seen in the past is kind of the over-hyping of a six-figure business or six-figure revenues stream or the over-hyping of just offers. I think in the industry we’ve seen a lot of overpromising and underdelivering. So it’s finding that balance of what is that desirable outcome that is also accurate, and not misleading? At least for me, that’s, that’s something I really focus on. 

Destinee Berman 

Oh, I love that question. And the good news is that you have a business, you actually have data to go back to. And what I have my members go through is I have them list out their most favorite students and clients. And then we have them identify the patterns and what their outcome was, and then we had her look at “Well, why were they your favorite students and clients?” Because there’s simply a pattern why you’re working with them or teaching them and what they got from the program or from working with you? Even if it’s one-on-one work, that’s actually where a lot of the juice starts. Once we identify those patterns, it actually informs the desired outcome and realistic outcomes of your course. 

So it’s not like it has to be that far away. I think that when it gets out of hand, but what I’ve seen is because we think we have to do more in order to sell. And of course, we have to be competitive and all that good stuff. But people know it when you’re over-promising and so even inside our business, we always have to look and evaluate. Say “Okay, is this really what we’re committing to?” And if they really show up, are they the right fit? Because sometimes we forget. We think it’s all on us, but they also have to be your right-fit customers and students as well. With that ongoing relationship, “Are we attracting the right fit people? Are they the kind of business owner or individual that we are in a place that’s well suited to work with, even if it’s group teaching and then as what we’re committing to is that realistic?”It’s an ongoing process of starting with tough data. 

And then always going back to what is asked. “Oh. Well, what are the recent results?” That will always tell you the story, and you just keep adjusting as it is. 

Jaclyn Mellone

That’s a great framework for that. But yes, we can do our own litmus test and be like “Okay, this actually is the outcome.” This is what we’re promising, and leading people there. Having that clarity with my own offers, making them more tangible, more really specific. And because this is, I mean, one of my programs from the past that I credit to the name of this podcast, it was called Go-To Gal. Not that it, I mean, it certainly did help people become the Go-To Gal, but what is, what was the litmus test of becoming a Go-To Gal, right? There’s a lot of ambiguity there. That’s not a program that I offer in its entirety anymore. It’s kind of built into and woven into other things. 

When I think about that, it was too vague of a promise of being more specific, even if that was the name of the program. If I was going to offer it again, being more specific with, what is that exact transformation and the eight weeks, 12 weeks, or whatever it is?

Destinee Berman

Exactly. And in the beginning, it may be harder to get specific and that’s okay. When you’re working with people who already know you, you have to get this out there to keep shaping it, to give her fine.

And that’s okay. We don’t need to worry about,”Okay, I’m going to nail how specific it is. And then I’m going to launch.” It’s about ” Okay, I know enough, and I’m not putting out anything that’s half-baked here. It’s not sloppy. There’s not going to be perfect.I was phoning LinkedIn. The founder of LinkedIn Reid Hoffman.

He said that “If you are not embarrassed by that first version of the product that you put out there, you’ve already launched to. And so we just need to be careful of not trying to get so granular. And once I chose all my tech platforms and then I launched it, you’re never good.” This is a process. That’s really ultimately the bottom line.

Jaclyn Mellone

It was such a process and such a good reminder. And yes, it is. The clarity comes from the action. From doing the same program multiple times, that ability to iterate and refine and make those improvements and adjustments, not just to the marketing, but to the offer itself, right? Okay. My last question for you is maybe controversial.

I don’t want to put you on the spot, so answer as you feel comfortable. But this is something I’ve been noticing a little bit. And as we talk about having more this expansion of the creator community in having more people showing up, contributing, offering courses, showing up on these platforms, and creating these really engaged communities. And the contrast of seeing maybe the people who have been leading the industry and how many. They haven’t been showing up and the way that we would want them to, or it just feels different. And it almost feels like changing up the guard or like, there’s this.

There’s this current where, sure, some people have been really popular and are going to continue to grow. But it does feel like because there are so many changes, there’s also this opening for new people to be coming in and rising up in this new regime of leadership or this new structure of leadership in our industry that maybe isn’t even as structured and clicky. Perhaps I say, is this in the past? Have you seen any of this? Do you feel this too? It’s okay if you don’t, but I’m just curious as we’re talking about trends.

Destinee Berman

Well, one, I will say that I don’t follow a ton of people too cozy from that respect and also what I had done. This may or may not be the most effective way, once all my marketing strategy has been adapted for my B2B experience and companies. When I shifted, what I didn’t do as I didn’t go on and start taking all these different courses from leaders in the industry, and then kind of merge into my opera from a different world and then adapted to this community. So I would say that it’s funny because when people talk to me, I’m not a person who had the insider in all these different groups and whatnot. I was able to get access to more insider information for masterminds and whatnot. 

And that was really great. But to your point about changing of the guard, And the landscape shifting, I do see that happening. Because there are new offers and photographs and teachers that are emerging. And while I believe that there will always be tight-knit groups and leaders in the industry, I do. There’s this whole other conversation around also from the same group that was talking to the 100 True Fans around the creative middle class, how can we empower more people to have businesses that can support and have a great lifestyle without having to be the seven, eight-figure event? I do believe that if the creative middle class does get created, then we won’t be moving into this world. It’s not just all the top percentage of people that own the industry and not like dominate the industry. It’s that there’s this whole segment of educators and online course creators that can build a fruitful business using all these different platforms and channels.

Whether it be Pantheon or Podium, really making it on TikTok.  Help me pronounce those platforms correctly because I’m always getting confused. Or like writing on stuff stack and choosing the right three channels for them beyond Facebook, beyond Instagram and YouTube and create that livelihood. And I do believe that there is unmasked movement around that. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes. Okay. Well one, you’ve just completely validated me asking this question because I was a little nervous. I’m like, I don’t know what your answer is going to be, so we’re going to find out. But, but this is, I think the importance of having real conversations with, with real people and people outside of our networks too, and to see different perspectives. Because one, I really value and appreciate you sharing your insight and perspective on all of this. That makes a lot of sense to me and hearing your experience with it. It also just helped me put together some pieces too. 

Like for instance, you coming into this industry as an outsider, not taking all of the courses, and then creating yours, but you bringing your own expertise from this other industry. That’s part of the magic that’s happening, right? There’s this like a running joke of people how to make courses to great courses on when they were teaching people to have it, it’s like this “pyramid scheme” effect.

And it can be very meta for better or for worse. But I think because we’ve had such big leaders teaching so many people at scale about coaching or about course creation or about marketing, then those people start to teach their audience the same thing and maybe in a similar way because they went through that program and it does start to feel like a lot of the same.

That’s really been kind of what’s driving things and has more people are coming in from outside like yourself and bringing fresh perspectives and different ways. That’s changing things up and that’s forcing other people to change in a good way. I think it explains a lot of it. Like, okay. Well, that’s cool.

That’s just a fresh perspective that’s coming in. And I love this idea of the Creator Middle Class. You know when I was trying to explain to my grandma who is almost 91, she’s going to be 91 very soon about what I was doing with my business a few years back, we were talking about her mom, my great-grandmother started a business from her kitchen back in the thirties, she was an amazing cook and baker. And she started a catering business from her home and was catering, weddings, and bar and bat mitzvahs. And doing all of this right from her home and the idea wasn’t for her to create this six or seven-figure business, but for her to be able to be home with her children and can have a business and bring money in and get them through the great depression and all of this stuff. 

She was able to take the skill that she had and make money with it. And a lot of people are doing that right now but in a different way. Instead of the main street, they’re able to do this from Instagram and these different ways. And I really think that that is such an important part of our economy and that it’s not just a bunch of people being like those few people being like the Walmart and the Amazon of online education. Because that could absolutely be the case. 

Now that I’m saying I’m like ” I never thought of it like that before until you said that.” And I’m like “Yes. We don’t want this to just be five big guys making all the money.”

We need a more healthy structure for this. 

Destinee Berman

Exactly. And they’re all like me, they attack before us, you know, just like here, you’ve got the big tech and you’ve got all the startups and, you know, the growth-based companies or the companies that are growing. But the whole idea is, the industry is big enough that, you have all these other companies that are doing great things out there in the world, and then having incredible skills and expertise and knowledge to share. I mean, that’s amazing.  

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes. All right. Well, thank you for getting my wheels turning. Very inspired from our conversation, how can we stay in touch with you?  

Two ways to find me, Instagram, Des Berman. Well, we check our messages. We get lots of responses there and folks like to DMs, so we’re on there and on my website, destineeberman.com, you’ll find all kinds of resources, of free resources, podcast episodes, and training. Those are the two best ways to find me. 

Okay. Great. And of course, we’ll have all of that in the show notes as well. All right. Thank you so, so much, Destinee. This has been great. 

Can I just say thank you so much for listening? I don’t think I say it enough, but I love that you are here.

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