Do You Really Need an OBM? Rethinking Your Team with Kristen Westcott

Jaclyn Mellone

Welcome to Go-To Gal episode number 195. As always, I’m your host, Jaclyn Mellone. And today, oh, I’m always excited about episodes. But of course, today, I am super excited about this episode as well. So today we have a guest. Her name is Kristen Westcott. And we are talking specifically about OBMs, but we’re talking about hiring for your team.

Now, if you already have an OBM or you already have a team, still for you. If you haven’t started hiring yet but you’re thinking about it, or you’re wondering if it’s time to, or if you’ve been daydreaming about the day that you get to hire an OBM, this is also definitely for you. We talk about who really needs an OBM, what OBMs really do. A lot of spoiler alert, a lot of businesses maybe don’t need an OBM and what you need instead, and how to figure that out. This is like the conversation I wish I had heard a few years ago. And I confess this later on, but I will tell you upfront that I have had OBMs. I’ve struggled a lot with that role and with just the whole team role over the years. I’ve come a long way, and I’m super grateful for the team I have now. But there’s a lot of messiness involved with that. Okay, I don’t want to give too much away. We’re going to hit this hiring topic from all different angles. So before we get into it though, I do want to formally introduce you to Kristen, and then we’ll get going. 

Kristen Westcott is a business growth and systems strategist, and Founder of The Freedom Track Method who has spent the last decade in the legal and education fields supporting leaders and students in the areas of goal-setting, productivity, and project management. After recognizing her true passion lies in serving entrepreneurs. Kristen honed her skills as a director of operations. She quickly noticed that what was holding so many business owners back wasn’t a lack of drive or ability, but a lack of foundational systems that could support the day-to-day operations of a scaling business. These days, she spends her time helping online coaches, copywriters, and course creators scale without the frustration that massive growth often brings. 

All right, let’s get to it. Here is my conversation with Kristen.

Kristen, I’m so excited to have you here today. 

Kristen Westcott

Thank you so much, Jaclyn. I’m so excited to be having this conversation too. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes. All right, before we dive in with you and everything going on in your business now, take us back to when you were growing up. What were you the go-to gal for back then? 

Kristen Westcott

It seems silly, but people used to come to me all the time for help with figuring out how they could get things all done. So, and again, back before I had the life experience I have now, I used to pride myself on being able to do it. This is something that badge of honor that I wore growing up. And so, I worked three part-time jobs and attended school and I even got straight A’s. So everyone used to come to me wondering, how I managed to do it all? So that I guess would have been my go-to gal status back in the day.

Jaclyn Mellone

Oh my gosh. Right from the start, I can’t say I’m surprised by that. So fast forward to today, tell us what do you do and who do you help? 

Kristen Westcott

So no surprise. Today, I also support online entrepreneurs who are in that messy middle space. So they have a business, they’ve got lots of clients, they pass that startup phase, and things are going great and they’re thrilled. But now, they have a new problem with that. It’s that they are maxed for time on this end of things. And so, that’s where I’m able to hop in and help them sort out that messy middle, and figure out where the chaos is coming from and help them figure out what kind of strategy or systems they need to put in place so that they are not doing it all on their own. So that they are not doing everything. And so, still in the organization space and answering the question of, how can I do it all? But this time, my approach comes now from a different direction of, you’re not going to be doing it all. And here are some ways that we can sort that out. So I work highly in the strategy side of things for these online entrepreneurs today. 

Jaclyn Mellone

I’m in need of that too. So what does that look like? Are you coaching? Do you have a group program? How are you supporting them in this way? 

Kristen Westcott

So right now, the way that I support them is through VIP days. Because like I said, people come to me, they’re maxed for time, they’re super stressed out and they don’t really want to take a 12-week course to figure out what to do and how to solve this problem. They’re panicking now. And so, the best way I support them is through a VIP day where we hop in and we really look at, okay, let’s triage this now and let’s get something in place. So that going forward right away, you can start to carve out some of that time. So then we can start to tackle some of these other things that will then free up even more time and take some more stress and some more overwhelm off your plate. So that’s the primary way I do that. And towards the end of the year, I’ll probably be looking at doing a group option of that. But currently, the VIP days are the best way I support my clients. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Because it’s a deep dive. I get that. It’s like the one-on-one, the deep dive, they have a mess going on. What do we do? Okay. So I know where I want to take this conversation, but I know that someone’s listening right now who’s in that phase, which is going to be a lot of our listeners. Well, what do you tell them? What do they do? So I have to ask, what are some of the tips that you give people in that phase? Or what are some of the solutions that they need to get out of that? Oh my God. This is so overwhelming. That messy middle stage.

Kristen Westcott

There are so many, but the first thing that I really want them to do is I want them to get back in touch with what they want for their business. What is the vision that they have for their business? Because it’s probably not this chaotic phase that they’re in right now, but what is it that they really want for their business? And then are the actions that they’re taking, the day-to-day things that they’re doing that are stressing them out, are they going to get them to that vision? Or perhaps have they detoured a little bit? Or are they doing something that they “should” be doing because they think everybody else out there is doing this, so I should be doing this too? 

Typically where we start is to really take an assessment of what they are doing regularly, and is this going to get them to their vision? Because there are hundreds of business models out there, and all of them work. So it’s not that you need to follow that one person online that’s telling you that this is the only way to hit your goals. So let’s look at what it is you want to be doing, and let’s start getting you on the path to be doing more of that. And then from there, we look at what systems will support that particular endeavor or whatever. So we really have to dial in on, where is it that you want to go? And where are you now? And what can we start to do to shift and bring those two together? So that you’re more in alignment with the reason you started your business, to begin with.

Jaclyn Mellone

So key, a business can totally take on a mind of its own. And as things grow, especially if they’re growing fast it’s so easy to get to that place where you’re like, or even sometimes you get exactly to the place that you wanted to go that looked so great. And then you’re like, do I ever want to be here? I’ve been there before, where absolutely following may be what other people want, or even what you think that you want. And then when you’re actually living it, it may not be that. So starting with that intentionality and then supporting that with systems. Okay, so with all of that, where does hiring fit in? Is that usually a phase that you recommend hiring? Let’s pivot over to the hiring side of things. When should somebody think about hiring? 

Kristen Westcott

There’s no way, once you hit this amount of money or whatever in your business, it’s entirely dependent on, like I said, your business’ vision. Some people, their vision is to only work 15 or 20 hours in their week. And other people are like, I don’t mind working 40 hours as long as I’m doing things that I love. And so, there’s no set exactly at this point or at this time whenever you do it. But what I start with people, as I say, okay, when you start to feel that pressure and when you start to feel that overwhelm, that is a sign that you need to get some more support in your business. So whether it’s your first hire or your next hire, or your third or fourth hire, when you’re feeling that pressure, that overwhelmed, that’s a sign that you need to hire. And so then the next phase is figuring out who, who do I need to hire? It’s not always the general virtual assistant. 

So for you, Jaclyn, you have a podcast. And I don’t know when you first started, but perhaps if someone’s a podcast host, that might be the first thing that they outsource because the amount of time it takes to do the editing and put together the social stuff and the audiograms, and uploading everything to the platforms and all of those pieces, creating the show notes might be something that makes it feel heavy. You love having the conversations, but the rest of it feels heavy. You might outsource that before you get a general virtual assistant. And so, that’s what I always suggest is like, what is your business that is making you feel heavy? Or what is it that’s constantly on your to-do list that you’re bumping to the next thing and totally ignoring? And that it’s sitting on your shoulders all week off, oh, I still have to do this thing. I haven’t done it yet. I haven’t done it yet. I haven’t done it yet. 

Even if it’s a two-minute task, if it’s weighing on you and you’re thinking about it all week long, it’s not a 2-minute task anymore. Now it’s become a week-long task, and it’s draining your energy for all of those other tasks. And so, that’s typically where you start. When you feel that pressure, then figuring out what is the cause of that pressure, and then we can start to look at, okay, who do we hire to help fix this? 

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes. Oh, and I love how you put that with the 2-minute tasks because that’s something I’ve actually been taking a lot of time to assess in my business. Not necessarily from the hiring angle, but more from the, what’s my role in the business? What’s our business model and all of that? But from the hiring perspective too. It’s no longer that 2-minute task if it’s taking the whole week. Yes, it’s brilliantly put in something that we all need to be real about because it’s easy not to want to face that if there are those things that we keep procrastinating or putting off. So, okay, starting with what feels heavy, and potentially that’s a specialist with the podcast which is a great example. I do recommend people that have podcasts outsource because it’s so easy to get burned out, and really, to keep that consistency and everything. I was fortunate enough when I started my podcast. I have a co-host, Jessica Stansberry. I did the social and she did the editing. But we both agreed as soon as we were making money from the podcast, that was all going to go to someone to edit it. And it took us about four months to get there, but that was the first goal.

So absolutely, not like passing over that. Just generic. Okay, I need a saving grace virtual assistant beginning specifically with tasks and then thinking who can do them. Is that where we started? 

Kristen Westcott

Yes, because I’m sure you’ve seen this or experienced this. When people start to make that list of, oh my goodness, my dream hire would be… They list so many different things that require a variety of skillsets. And so then we have this all-encompassing role, but you’re looking for this person out there who’s good at copy and graphic creation and editing an ad. These are all very different skill sets that have different strengths. 

So instead of looking specifically at what are all the things I want to get off my plate, start with what really feels heavy and then what is the skillset that is needed for that. And that might mean you have two or three different people doing specific roles, versus one all-encompassing virtual assistant. It’s actually going to be easier for you to manage two or three people that are experts in the tasks that you’ve given them than it is to manage one person who is not an expert at all of those areas who’s going to need more support from you, who’s going to have more questions for you, who’s going to be coming back to you for more guidance and support. If you’d hired a virtual assistant to edit your podcasts, they might be coming to you with, do I clip this and where do you want this, and how do you want the show notes done? Versus when you hire someone that that is what they do, that is their zone of genius. They’re just saying Jaclyn, I need the raw file. It makes it so much easier for you to manage that person or that team of people that are handling that project because it is their area of expertise. 

So, it’s better to hire two or three people in a smaller capacity than it is to hire that one person that you’re hoping will fix all of the issues in your business, because they don’t necessarily have the skills required to do all of those things really, really well.

Jaclyn Mellone

Excellent point there. Okay, that just opened up a whole bunch of more questions for me. So when hired probably, earlier and more hours than most people would recommend in my business, because one, I really needed the support in terms of time with children. I was pregnant. I had a toddler. Even now, I just don’t have full-time hours. So I needed that support. Also having ADHD, there were things that I just literally couldn’t do. If it was up to me to be responsible for emailing or things like that, it just wouldn’t happen in a professional organized way. And I knew we needed to tackle that if we were going to grow. But that said, when we start thinking about, okay, this is what feels heavy. Let’s get this off the plate. Is there a point where you assess, so okay, I’m trying to get this off my plate because it’s heavy? But then what am I spending my time on? It’s almost inferred like, oh, free up your time so you can do more things that are going to take on more clients or more sales activities or what that looks like. Is there a point in time where we should think about hiring roles that are going to help generate money for the business? Does that make sense? I’ve been thinking about things like there were points in time that I was spending a lot of money on having someone create something for social, but it didn’t actually translate to revenue on the backend. Maybe it took that thing off my plate or it gave us that extra thing but didn’t see that conversion. So when we’re trying to evaluate, okay, maybe this feels heavy, but what’s worth putting our money into? How do we look at that? Did I ask that clearly enough? I feel like I’m all over the place with it. But this is definitely something that I had struggled with in the past, for sure. 

Kristen Westcott

Yes. So I think there’s a couple of parts there, and correct me if I’m misinterpreting your question, but the first thing I always recommend is before you make a hire of somebody who’s not doing a revenue-generating task. So for example, if you’re a coach and you run a group coaching program and you’re hiring a second coach to support you in that program, that is directly a revenue-generating activity because now you can expand the number of people you can coach. But like you said, with the social media person, you might not directly see that revenue correlate. I always recommend before you hire them, give yourself or put away three months of what you think you’re going to be paying them. So whatever their package is, their retainer, or their hourly rate, put it aside for three months and see how is your business doing without that money? Is this something that you can continue to invest in in the long term? Or are you feeling really tight in your budget having that person on your team?

So that’s the first thing, is to really look at if this is not a direct revenue-generating task, can my business, whether this for a few months until we start to see some return on that investment? Or is that perhaps not the best use of the budget that we have in order to expand the team?

And the reason I say that is because social media is one of the first things I always want to offload. And at the end of the day, people want to see you as the business owner. They’re wanting to work with you if you’re the coach, or you’re the copywriter, they want to see you. So there’s only a certain amount of that that you can offload and you’re still going to have to do it. And so it’s like, hmm, I could outsource this and have them create three carousel posts and a reel for me, or I could just go live and they can see me, hear me, and it’s probably going to generate more engagement. And so that’s the other thing to look at is like, are these things that you’re outsourcing actually going to be worth it for you in the end? And then there was a second part to your question. I don’t think I touched on that, did I?

Jaclyn Mellone

Maybe. I feel like you did touch on it. But I’m trying to think of what I’m like, okay, I was so all over the place for that. But it’s trying to think about, which I think you did get to is, okay, is this task that you’re going to hire or is this expertise that you’re outsourcing is going to generate revenue? And if it’s not, can your business sustain itself without it? It’s you evaluating like, is there another solution for this? With social media, you’re right. I totally struggled with this, which is why we started doing more videos on my social media because I’m like, okay, at least it’s me. So I can get on zoom with the team member for an hour and we can turn that into a bunch of content, and we can repurpose the podcast content and still be present on social media. Because just totally outsourcing it doesn’t work or didn’t work for me. I shouldn’t say it wouldn’t work for anybody. 

So what was missing with that? I don’t know. I guess when you’re hiring for certain things that maybe don’t directly bring in money, and I’m going to say most things don’t, because even with your example with the coach if you’re not selling more spots in that program, it’s just taking more money from your profits of that program. So is there ever a time where it makes sense to be with a contractor that can make that clear with them that there’s expectations of it generating a certain amount of leads or revenue? Or how should we be evaluating that on the backend to see if it does make sense to still have this person or this role? Let’s not make it a person.

Kristen Westcott

Yes, I think that that was the other part that I was going to touch on. Thank you. That was perfect. So there is always going to be overlap within the business. Where you’re going to need that lead time to be able to evaluate is the return on investment making sense. But the other thing is when you hire, you need to have a plan for the hire. The onboarding is not just a one-week onboarding, it is a couple of months. I like to do a 30, 60, 90-day onboarding plan to make sure that person is really well integrated within the business. And the other side of that is you also need to plan for yourself when this person comes in now. What am I going to be doing to generate the revenue to offset the cost of having that person in my business?

So in the example of bringing the coach in, yes, you need to onboard them. They probably need to shadow a couple of your calls. You’re going to still need to do some of that transition piece. But as soon as you’ve passed off a call or whatever, what are you doing with that hour or that two hours or whatever to generate more revenue? Are you opening up your calendar to take on more discovery calls? Are you going out there and doing more video content and other webinars? What is it specifically that you’re doing to bring in more people now to fill that program? Are you prepping for another launch? Because now you’re like, okay, we can relaunch this because I have the support I need to coach the current cohort while I’m in the middle of launching this new cohort. 

So it’s two parts. You’re planning for this person and bringing them into your business. But also a plan for you of, okay, now that I’ve just got these extra couple hours a week, you can sit back just do whatever you want with those hours, if your business has the revenue to sustain it. If you do have the profits and you’re just really looking to step back. But most of us, that’s not our goal when we’re hiring. For most of us, it is so that we can grow. And if that’s the case, then you need to really look at, okay, these extra couple of hours I’ve got back this week, what am I doing with them? I’m not going to be writing another blog post, or I’m not going to be doing another social post unless your metrics tell you that that’s what converts your people. 

But for most of us, it’s relationship building. It’s getting out there in front of your audience and letting them know that you have something to sell. You’re getting your message out there. You’re selling regularly.  Like I said, maybe you’re opening up your calendar for more discovery calls. Those are the things that you need to be doing to replace that person that you’ve brought in because that’s going to be what’s going to drive your revenue to offset the cost of growing your team.

Jaclyn Mellone

Okay, I love that. Such a good breakdown and a good reminder too that yes, sometimes in the situation we’re talking about, we’re freeing up time so we can grow our business. But if you want to hire out, so you can just not work crazy hours or have more free time, like that’s totally acceptable too. I love that reminder. Okay, so I did have a question. And now with my recap of that, I totally lost it. Let’s see if it comes back to me. 

So we’re talking about hiring someone who’s going to be that consistent team member. Maybe they’re a contractor or maybe it’s five hours a month, maybe it’s 50 hours a month. Maybe it’s potentially a full-time employee, but we’re really talking about contractors in this scenario. I think it sounds like. Because we’re talking about this revenue piece, I know this comes up for people too especially if people are more comfortable behind the scenes. They’re more comfortable doing the work, or they’re more comfortable delivering the program than being the ones selling the program or marketing the program, or they may even have that belief of like, I’m not a marketing person or I’m not a salesperson. 

Hiring, maybe not that monthly retainer type relationship, ongoing relationship, but what about hiring for a launch? Is that something that you have seen or I’ve experienced with like, okay, I’m going to hire a launch manager. Or I’m going to hire a marketing team to put this launch together for me. I feel like this can go both ways. But I’m really curious about your takes on hiring for that piece. 

Kristen Westcott

Yes. Oh, my goodness, it seems like you should open a can of worms here. I have so much to say on this topic. Okay, first things first are if you own your business, whether you like it or not, you are a marketer. And this is coming from the operations girl. I stay behind the scenes. I like to be in the back end of businesses for a reason. I do not enjoy being out there and marketing, selling all those things. I get it. A hundred percent, I hear you. I feel you. I am you. And I’ve had to learn to get a little bit uncomfortable and do some of those things in order to be able to grow my business. This is where the mindset comes in. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Okay, can you just go back? You were like, I hear you, I am you. I don’t want to be that. But I’m not typically that marketing person either. Just somewhere in that. 

Kristen Westcott

All right, so I definitely am that behind-the-scenes person. As a director of operations, as a strategist, I enjoy being behind the screen. I do not enjoy getting out there and marketing my business. But you have to get a little bit uncomfortable. And this is Jaclyn, I mean your forte. We’re talking about the mindset pieces. And all of that that comes into it is, you need to work on that because if you are a business owner, you are going to have to be the face of your brand. You are going to have to market. You are going to have to get out there. And I absolutely, 100%, would hire somebody for support for just a launch or just a project. But know that those people are going to be supporting the back end. You are still going to have to be the marketing face of that particular launch. So if you’re hoping to hire so that you don’t have to do all of the webinars, you don’t have to do the Facebook live, or you don’t have to do the thing, that’s not going to happen. You’re still going to have to be the face for that long.

But you can still have the support on the backend. Someone can be doing the tech can, somebody can be doing the prep and they’ll lay out the schedule for you. So you have your deadlines of what needs to be done by when they will send the emails. You can hire someone to write the emails, all of that kind of stuff. 100% get the support you need. If that’s going to be what it takes for you to be able to get in front of that. If you need someone to outline, these are the three points you’re going to hit on this Facebook Live, and this is your call to action. And then you’re comfortable getting on camera doing it, get that support because that’s going to be what’s going to drive your business forward. So yes, I am 100% hiring a launch team, if that is going to be what it’s going to take for you to actually execute on the launch. But you’re still not going to be able to get away from being the face of your business and the face of your brand. And so, that’s why you’re hiring them as if you’re hoping they’re just going to take over and do the thing? You’re probably going to have to rethink your purpose for hiring that team, and work a little bit more on the mindset side of things and just get it a little bit out of your comfort zone. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Very true, that’s very true. Oh, I love the tough love with that. Okay, so what else should we keep in mind with deciding who to hire? Maybe we already have some of those specialists on our team of, okay, I have the podcast manager, I have the Instagram manager or something like that. At what point should we look at hiring an OBM, and what is an OBM? Let’s talk about that.

Kristen Westcott

Yes. I love this question. Okay. So yes, what is an OBM? Because in the online space, titles are blurred. Everybody could just call themselves whatever they want. You’ve probably heard it described as like the wild west before. And so there is this blurring of lines between a virtual assistant and an online business manager. So what I like to think of is, just like their title says, online business manager. So if you think of it in terms of a retail store, many of us have experienced that. You go in, you have the store associates. They’re the ones greeting the customers, bringing up transactions on the till. They’re free folding the clothes or restocking the shelves, or they’re doing all of the things that it takes to keep that store running so that customers can come in.

The manager of that store is handling the scheduling of those employees. Handling performance evaluations of an employee who maybe has consistently shown up late, or not doing what they’re supposed to be doing. Maybe not wearing the appropriate uniform that they’re supposed to be wearing. They’re responsible for figuring out which displays to move around depending on what’s selling well or what’s in season. And looking at getting information from their head office and translating that into what works for their store and their location. So if we think of that in terms of the online business space, it’s the same idea. Your virtual assistant is your implementer. They’re in your inbox, answering your customer inquiries, supporting people’s requests to update credit card information or passwords, and things like that. They are really working and implementing things. 

Whereas your online business manager is just that they are a manager of that team of implementers. So they will manage your projects. They’ll keep them on a task on time, hopefully on budget as well. They will manage your processes, helping you figure out how to make things more efficient, how to document what you’re doing so that you can onboard a new team member. They will help you with figuring out who your next hire is going to be. And they will help you manage that team, and manage any kind of performance issues. So they’re not supposed to be the implementers in your business. They are supposed to be managing the implementers. 

Often what we see in the online space is that people are expecting these virtual assistants to either also manage and be project managers and whatever, or they’re hiring an OBM with the expectation that they’re also going to upload their social posts and upload their emails and upload that kind of stuff.

And it’s not to say that an online business manager won’t do that. They will help out during a launch, they will help out during a busy time. But that shouldn’t be their day-to-day, week-to-week expectation in your business. That in a nutshell was how we could differentiate between what a virtual assistant does and what an online business manager is doing.

Jaclyn Mellone

Okay. This is such a different answer than I was expecting you to say because my experience with OBMs is very different from that. Now, I have struggled with this role in my business for sure. The irony is, my current, I don’t even know what her title is or I’m just going to say my current right-hand gal, my current team member who is closest to that role, Stacy, who many of our clients and customers know well. I didn’t hire her as an OBM. She started as an inbox assistant. And as I learned more about her skill sets, we just grew her role. And it’s funny because when I wasn’t trying to hire an OBM, now she does a lot. She is a really strong implementer. But she also supports me and the business in terms of planning and project management and everything. A lot of businesses, even in the six-figure range, I’m like, what do you think this budget would be to have someone who’s not implementing? Because people talk a lot about, oh, what is the book? Rocket Fuel, where it’s the visionary and the integrator. That book is based on the profile of a $2 million a year business. 

And so, I’ve had thoughts of okay, I feel like this might be off for most of the business owners that I work with. Even in my own business, I try to set it up where it’s almost having a front-end marketing integrator and a backend integrator, I think works better for me than that one integrator. We’re not at that size yet. So what do you think in terms of somebody who has an OBM but they also have all of these other contractors, what do you think that monthly budget for a team would be to have someone that’s really able to be managing, but also have enough implementers? 

Kristen Westcott

Yes. I can’t give an exact number, because that entirely depends on their business model, and what they have going on and how many different people they need to support that particular model. But what I can tell you is this is exactly what you’re speaking to is, if you have an OBM especially if you have a certified OBM, their hourly rate starts around $65 an hour, and it goes up to about $125 an hour, depending on their skill set, how long they’ve been doing it, and all of that kind of stuff. 

So you don’t want to be paying somebody $65 an hour to load your social media posts, to upload your emails, to do those kinds of things. So if this is where you might have a look at splitting those roles, and you might only need an OBM two to three hours a week, or eight hours, 10 hours a month. And a lot of times you can do fractional contracts for that type of role. But what I often see businesses in that middle space that are in that lower to the mid-six-figure range is that they don’t necessarily need that manager yet. They might need to hire a project manager. So rather than a full-on online business manager, what you might need is an intermediate role which is a project manager who is not managing your team. And they are not managing a large number of processes, but they are managing the projects which are typically where the bottlenecks start when you’re growing. And when you are in that space where you’re just like, oh my goodness, I need more than what I have and it can’t be me. So a lot of times people will go from having like you said, the person who started with you, and then she grew into that role. They might grow more into a project management role, but they don’t necessarily have the strategic expertise yet to lead that forward team member like the Rocket Fuel talks about what the visionary and the integrator. The integrator is taking that vision and creating the plan, the strategic plan for getting there.

Your OBM, your brand new OBM and your project manager and your VA’s are not necessarily going to have that level of strategic analysis available to them. That’s where you’re looking more towards a director of operations, which is another role in the online space that gets closer to that integrator level. But what I would say is in between you can have a marketing manager, a project manager, or an operations manager before you get into that overall online business manager. And you might not need all three of them either. Like this is where your business will differ depending on what it is. You might just need that project manager to help you get the launches going. Or maybe your business model requires a lot of bargaining and there’s a lot of moving pieces, then you might just need a marketing manager and you can still handle the backend operations yourself. So I can’t give you a straight answer saying exactly what that budget would be, but I want people to understand if there is that middle piece before you hire an online business manager who’s going to oversee the whole company with you. Is that you might just need a project manager or an operations coordinator in the meantime.

Jaclyn Mellone

Okay. That’s helpful. I’ve seen higher-level OBMs, be anywhere from $2,500 to $6,000 a month. And so I’m thinking of that plus, but they are not implementing. So having like, that could be a $10K a month run rate. And so that’s where I’m like, okay, even a $5k a month for a team may not work for many business models, depending on the stage of business they’re at and how much profit they want from the business, and what their other expenses look like and things like that. Okay, this is interesting to break down and think about. And I think it breaks the mold of, and I think we talked about this when we had a chat. Hiring an OBM is almost like a status symbol in our industry. Do we talk about this? Because I’m like having deja vu and I’m thinking about this, where people are like, oh, I hired an OBM. 

I remember feeling really proud of myself when I hired my first OBM. And it’s talked about so much that it does feel like, oh, my business is at this level now that I can hire an OBM. But the OBM description that you were describing is not what most OBMs are marketing themselves at, or what most people I think would expect of an OBM. So what is up with this whole status symbol thing? Because I think that’s just unhealthy for business when we’re doing things that are caught up in a higher, because we think it means something about us or our business or our success. So let’s destroy this as a symbol of whatever it is, but why do you think this even turned into a status symbol, and what’s your take on this whole thing?

Kristen Westcott

Yes. Oh, I love this conversation. So this really started out a few years ago now. I will say about three years ago now. We started to hear a lot of the gurus that we follow starting to talk about their team. So prior to this, they didn’t really talk a lot about their team, and when it came to the forefront that people were pressing for it. They have a team of 10 to 15 people supporting them in this way. That is why they’re able to make this kind of money, that is why they have this type of business model. And we really started pushing in the social media space for that kind of transparency. Because prior to that, the marketing was, hey, you can have a six-figure launch and go from a thousand a month to $10,000 a month in 90 days.

And that was the trend in marketing for a while. And then people called BS on that trend. And then this is what happened, people had to start saying, well, I have this team and whatever else. And then along with that came, well, how on earth do you manage that number of people? And then we started to have these conversations about these integrators. So when these business owners started to come out saying that they have these integrators, we started to hear podcasts with them having conversations with them. And all of a sudden it was like, I want that. It’s like the newest thing that’s come out in the store. It’s like, I want the new iPhone. I want the new Mac. I want the new whatever. 

This was the thing it’s like, I want that for my business because it sounds like this miracle role. And they are amazing. Anybody who has an OBM or a director of operations will tell you that they cannot imagine growing their business without them. And they have hit a particular point in their business that can financially support that particular role. And so I think for a lot of times, people are like, oh, I’ve made it in the online space if I have this role within my company. But not having that person on your team doesn’t mean that you aren’t successful at your business. It just means that either A, you have a different business model, maybe you have a different vision. Here’s the other thing, it goes back to that vision that I talked about is not everybody wants a million-dollar business, and that’s okay. Some people do want that and other people don’t. And you really have to have a look at what is that vision for your business? What model do you want to have for your business? How many hours do you want to be working? How do you want to be serving your clients? And does it make sense for your business to have this role in it? It doesn’t always. Sometimes you just need a team of two or three really fantastic people supporting you in growing your business. And then that doesn’t require that level.

Anyone who has a CFO or consults with a CFO, they’ll often tell you that they like to see your team expenses around 20% of your revenue. And so when you’re looking at bringing in somebody who is an integrator, like you said, Jaclyn, that can run $2,500 to $6,000- $7,000 a month. If that’s supposed to be 20%, and that’s just one role. If that’s supposed to be 20% of your revenue, that should tell you. You are gearing up closer to the million-dollar mark, whereas you’ve got to at least hit the half a million-dollar mark before you’re looking at somebody who was going to be a true integrator rather than having other fantastic people on your team that maybe just don’t necessarily hold that prestigious title that we are all going for.

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes. Okay, so when you said integrator, and again, I hadn’t heard it described exactly like that before. But what one offers me is that in my team, and my team and a lot of other things. But in terms of having that person that’s able to say like, okay, you have the vision, here’s the strategy. We don’t have that. But what I realized when you said is that I feel very comfortable in that role. And that’s actually something I really enjoy is having the vision and having the strategy. Where I struggle is like, okay, here’s the strategy now. What does everything we need to do to execute the strategy?

That’s very draining for me to come up with all of those tasks and timelines. So that’s where I think having a team member is, whether it’s their area of expertise but we’re not talking about, I guess, an OBM in this scenario. But maybe who’s able to say, okay, here’s the strategy, and they’re able to break that down into more of the project management but without necessarily saying that they’re not directing that strategy in any way. And I think that’s where a lot of us as entrepreneurs are comfortable in that role, or that’s why you join group coaching programs or work with a coach to help you put together that strategy and have the team to help you implement.

So with OBM, a lot of times on online business we need someone who can do tech stuff, who could do the techie stuff in marketing. When I say marketing, I mean putting together sales pages, funnels, connecting all of these million systems that we have to have together, making everything talk to each other, that type of stuff. Then maybe there’s someone who is more on the marketing side, content, repurposing content, creating graphics, that side of things. A lot of the time you can get someone who can do both. But a lot of the time, not. So that may or may not be the same person. And then customer service, in terms of community management and a Facebook group, maybe it’s answering emails, coordinating with podcasts guests, things like that. So that would be a common thing. And then there’s this project management role. I realize we’re not talking about a specific business here, and there’s not one way, which I freaking love. There’s no one way to structure your team. It really has to be about you and your business, and all of these things. And so customizable, but just trying to wrap my head around this in a way that I know someone listening can start to piece together. 

Okay, what do I need on my team? And not even to mention, usually, you’re going to have a bookkeeper or something that’s going to be separate. Then let’s talk about this, I guess, the core running the business team. A lot of the time, OBMs are expected to do all of those things, which I think is part of the reason why I struggled in the past because I did expect them to do all of those things. And then, I don’t know with customer service, sometimes there are operations too in terms of just running the program. Like having someone that’s like, okay, we’re having this program. This has been the calls that are going to be, like the scheduling, the coordinating guest experts, how you’re delivering on that promise to your students. There’s that operational piece that I think a lot of people probably do themselves. But it really helps to have someone in the business that’s able to support that too. And then, I guess, the different levels that you might be bringing on a coach or all of that. So, okay, is it that business that is maybe not quite at six figures yet, that messy middle that you’re talking to, at what point does it make sense for them to hire someone who’s an OBM who can also implement? Or is that something that we should just totally not think about and we should be really hiring the specialist and working the way up to the OBM point? 

Kristen Westcott

Yes, I think it’s the latter there. So I would recommend, especially if you’re just crossing that six-figure mark that you’re not looking necessarily for the OBM. You’re looking for that specialist. If you’re running a course-based business and you need tech support, then you need to find a really good VA that works in your system, whether that’s Kajabi or Kartra or another one that you’re piecing together with Zack. You need to find somebody that is their role, that is their specialty. Because then you could still, as you said, do the program management and connect with your students and that kind of stuff. If you have all of that other stuff taken care of. When you’re crossing that six-figure mark, and you’re in the messy middle, you cannot outsource everything feasibly. If you want to take an income home from your business, you can’t outsource all of your revenues. So you have to have a look at what is the thing that I hate the most. For most of us, it’s the tech piece. Unless you are someone who loves tech, in which case then outsource the other part. And the other part of that is your person who is handling your customer support, your community management, they often have a very different personality type, and you can go by whatever different tests. If you want to do Enneagram or Myers-Briggs or whatever, they have a very different side to them that is typically leading more with the feeling, with the heart than with the head. Where your tech person is typically leading more with the head and problem-solving.

And so you’re wanting to keep those two roles separate. But the person who is supporting your customers and maybe your community manager might be able to grow into that role where they are maybe the program coordinator where they’re talking about, okay, this needs to happen. And here’s where this makes sense because they’re seeing where your students are getting confused or where they’re getting frustrated because they’re answering their questions in the community. And so that role could potentially grow more into taking on more of that side of things because it’s in alignment with the skillset they have in working with your students. And then it depends on their skillset. Some people who are still very heavy on the feeling side are really still great project managers that could develop that skillset as well. Whereas your tech person is going to be less likely to be the person to hop in and do your program coordination. But they might be the person to be able to help you say, okay, the next level of this or the next piece of this would be. And they can help you with your next iteration of the growth in the backend of your business.

And so I would recommend you having someone with a tech specialty and then someone with more of that customer service vibe to them when you’re just crossing the six-figure mark and you don’t need the OBM just yet. Both of those people will help and be able to support you enough that you can still lead your business and get the growth until you can outsource that as well.

Jaclyn Mellone

I love that we’re having this conversation because I feel like everybody thinks they need to have an OBM. So it’s so freeing, and I’ve almost felt it because I haven’t had an “OBM” in a couple of years now, since I switched over to doing this more of, I look at this front of the house, back of the house. But it’s like the marketing person operations, and I was lucky enough to find someone who does have customer service skills and can do tech support. So she’s truly a unicorn in that, in that regard. But she’s not the marketing person. Getting to know those individuals too is really important because we’re all unique. And I think assessments support hiring decisions, but people are so much more than assessments. And what I found is that assessments can open up conversations. 

So recently, we’ve done some different assessments on the team that I didn’t realize that someone had a certain skill set where it’s like, oh, well you’re really analytical. How can we bring that more into what you’re doing? And so assessments can really support that, especially if you’re not skilled yourself and figuring those things out from your employees or your contractors. Okay, so we’re in agreement with this custom model of a team. One of the struggles that come with that though, is you have to manage these people now. And yes, having experts who can manage themselves in a way definitely helps. I’ve definitely had that situation before where I’ve hired an assistant or hired a VA, and just never gave them anything to do. They were not successful at getting anything from me to do. So yes, the more skilled and experienced someone is, the more they’re going to be able to take the reins and this and that. But where I’ve struggled with the team in this structure is getting everyone on the same page, not being the middleman, getting them to talk to each other and maybe not come to me for everything, making sure people aren’t working in silos. We’ve tried a bunch of different things, but I’m curious from your perspective. How do you guide people on the management side of making sure that the team is working cohesively and in the same direction, and that it doesn’t just feel like for the entrepreneur that everyone’s coming to them with everything?

Kristen Westcott

Yes. That’s a great question. And I think forming that team culture is really important. Especially when you are working with contractors because there is this sense that they’re still running their own business. It’s not like they’re part of a company. They’re not an employee. And so it’s really important to do those team-building things. So whether or not that is having a monthly team meeting, and maybe you start it with an ice breaker of two truths and a lie or whatever, just so they can get to know each other outside of their roles, or having quarterly happy hours or lunch debriefing time where you just don’t talk about business. You are just talking about getting them to know each other. Because again, it’s like, you don’t have that water cooler talk that you have in an organization. So you have to try and find a way to build that culture so that they’re seeing each other as members of a team that have a common goal in growing the business and whatever the mission of that business is.

And so they’re going to be looking at, as like, now I have to do this task not just because it’s a task in Asana that I have to get done, but because I know this person is waiting on me to get this done. And I don’t want to make their life miserable by not getting it done on time. They have that sense of camaraderie in their colleagues for the same kind of company. And so I think that’s really important is to try and build that. The other thing we’ll do is, again, depending on how big your team is. But if you have the capabilities to do a little bit of cross-training. Not that everybody knows everything about the other person’s role, but that there is a little bit of overlap so that again, they can feel like, hey, I see that you have so many tasks listed in Asana this week. Let me hop in and help you with this couple of things, because I know I can support you in that. And again, it builds that relationship between them that team members can help each other out if there is a particular season in your business that is really heavy on a particular project. I think that’s also really important. 

And then the third thing is to train your team members for the outcome that you want. And not necessarily saying like, you have to do ABCD in this order. Just say like, this is the outcome. Before this task is marked complete, it needs to meet these specific parameters. And that might be like for a YouTube post that it’s got the description, that has got your three keywords. It’s got your hashtags. Whatever that is, that the thumbnail has been uploaded using this graphic template in Canva or whatever. And then just saying, here, you get this done. I’m not going to micromanage you, but this is the expectation. I expect it to look like these three. Here are three examples of what I deem really great outcomes or output for this particular task. And I would like you to make sure your standards match that. And then they’re not coming to you, can I do this? Can I change this? Is this color okay? You’ve given them three examples of things that you say are great, and they can use their judgment and their expertise to be like, this measures up or maybe I need to go back and fix this piece because it doesn’t quite look like the examples she gave me. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Oh, I love that tip. Yes, because sometimes it’s hard to put into words all of the things that need to get done. So giving that example along with the tips, but also if there’s that full example there, I think that helps fill in any of the gaps that maybe you wouldn’t have thought to say. They’re just so intuitive to you that you wouldn’t think to share when outsourcing that. Oh my gosh. Okay, I could talk to you all day about this, but we were already out of time. That went way too fast. Oh, okay, any final thoughts that someone should keep in mind with their hiring?

Kristen Westcott

Yes. Again, to hire for what’s right for your business, not what you’re seeing other people talking about on social media, because every business is unique. And even if you’re running the exact same business model as your business bestie, your home life is unique and your lifestyle is unique and the things you have going on are unique to you. And your customer base is different and your message is different, so make sure you are hiring for your business and not based on an expectation of what you’re seeing online or something that you’ve heard from somebody else out there. So we’ve talked about a lot of things on this podcast. It does not mean you need to go and hire any of those specific people. I want you to make sure that all of the decisions you’re making in your business are based on what feels right and true for you where you’re at.

Jaclyn Mellone

Oh, all right, Kristen, this has been so thought-provoking, so informative, and just so fun. Thank you so much. How can we stay in touch with you? 

Kristen Westcott

Yes. Thank you so much for having me. I love having this conversation because if I can save one, the business owner from over-investing in the wrong role for their team, I will consider that a success. If you want to chat with me more about any of this kind of stuff, I am most active on Instagram. I love getting audio DMs from listeners where they pop in and let me know what their biggest takeaway was or one of their most fun parts of the conversation for them. So don’t hesitate to head on over to Instagram. I’m @kristenwestcott on Instagram, and I would love to hear from you in my DMs about what your biggest takeaway from today’s episode is. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Great, and we’ll link to that in the show notes as well. All right. Thank you so, so much. 

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