Authentic Automation: How to Approach Email Marketing in 2022 with Bev Feldman

Jaclyn Mellone

Welcome to Go-To Gal. I have no idea what episode this is. As always, I’m your host, Jaclyn Mellone. And I’m a little under the weather today but I wanted to record this intro for you. So we could get this episode out in time. And I forgot to look and see what episode we’re on. So stay tuned for that. I know you’re just on the edge of your seat waiting to know. Oh, it is 211. All right, this is episode number 211. Today, we are talking, I have on a guest Bev Feldman who is an expert with email marketing. And we jam on all things, email marketing, especially in the current context of 2022. What has changed? What is icky? How are we rethinking things? How could we be more authentic with our email marketing? What has changed on the technology front? I can’t talk. I can’t think. I’m doing the best I can. And the good news is when I recorded this conversation with them, I was in a much better frame of mind. So you just have to deal with my loopiness for this intro if you will. What else can I tell you about this conversation? 

I really think of this as, so Bev is an expert on this topic. So I don’t want to say this is just a conversation between friends because she is lending expertise to this conversation. And I feel like we just dove in. And I just asked her everything that was on my mind. I confessed a little bit. I’ve been really not showing up in my email and the way that I write my email subscribers in the way that I would like to. And so we talk about that a little bit and how we can be more consistent. And really like that balance between automation and authenticity and how it doesn’t have to be. You can be authentic while automating. Those two things are not mutually exclusive, but how can we do that? And what’s the best way to do that? And what are some trends people are doing and what are trends that are out? And all of the things.

So essentially, if you have an email list or if you are looking to start growing an email list, this is the conversation to get you thinking in different ways. I left this conversation with so many ideas that I want to implement, things that I don’t have time to implement, that I know for sure be implementing at some point, and really just to get you rethinking about how you’re using your list, how to approach some different things in terms of cleaning up your list and getting more out of your list, best practices and just new things to keep on the lookout for this year. We cover a lot in this conversation. But to give you a little bit of a sneak peek, we talked about how to look at email marketing through a lens of connection. We talked about your opt-in thank you page and what to put on there to make a big impact, how to relieve the pressure of showing up enough in your email. This is such a game-changer for me, specifically. So I can’t wait for her to share that tip with you. Tips for choosing your email platform and when to switch so that was really, I think, a good tool to navigate depending on which email platform you’re on now. And how to ensure subscribers are getting the right amount of emails. I think we’ve all been on the receiving end of just getting too many emails during launches. And we geek out a little bit in some of these areas of how you can set up your automation to make sure you’re creating the best user experience for your subscribers without getting too techie. You know me, and I’m not going to like her. This isn’t like a step-by-step tutorial. We give just enough of the tech to give you the idea of whichever platform you’re using to be like, oh, let me look and see how I can do that because I don’t want that experience for my users. All right. Let’s get to it. But let me formally introduce you to Bev first, and then we’ll dive in.

Love your business but hate dealing with your email marketing platform? Then you need Bev Feldman, your personal tech fairy. Bev is a jewelry designer turned marketing technology consultant who helps service-based solopreneurs to build seamless automation on Convertkit so that you can save time, have the energy to help your clients, and increase opportunities to earn money from your business without using achy-feeling marketing techniques. Bev loves geeking out on technology, getting online platforms to fit together like a puzzle so that you can nurture relationships through email while you focus your time and energy on the parts of your business that light you up. All right, let’s get to it. Here is my conversation with Bev. 

Bev. I’m so excited to have you here today. 

Bev Feldman

I’m so excited to be here, Jaclyn. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes. All right. We have a lot to get into today, but before we get started, take us back in time to when you were growing up. What were you the go-to gal for back then? 

Bev Feldman

Yes. So it’s funny because I had to think about it. What was I known for? Because I was really shy and quiet when I was growing up. So I feel like I wasn’t the go-to person for being shy and quiet. But I realized that I was a couple of things. I was quietly book smart. I think people realize that I was smart. Especially in Math, amongst the people in the Math classes, I was known as being good at Math. And then the other thing is, especially with my friends, I was also a bit of a hippie. My friends told me before I went off to college, they’re like, Bev, you’re either going to be a hippie or you’re going to be goth. I did not go to the goth route, and I went to the hippie route a little bit to some degree. 

Jaclyn Mellone

I had my hippy stage and my hot topic phase.

Bev Feldman

I definitely had the hot topic phase as well like really pull off the hot topic phase, but I definitely enjoyed a good chip to hot topic. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Oh, I must be a little bit older than you because I definitely did the full-on. I was trying to channel Gwen Steffani or something. Somewhere at my parents’ house, they still have, one year, I had this faux fur coat. And this is like my regular every day to school coat. And it was black fur, and then the collar and around my wrists were purple fake fur. 

Bev Feldman

I can really visualize it. See, I had the leather jacket that I don’t think I got it a hot topic. I think maybe I got it, I don’t even know like Claire’s or Claire’s didn’t sell that. One of those stores that were very popular in the 90s.

Jaclyn Mellone

Oh my gosh. I love the good. Oh, a little nostalgia to kick things off. All right. Well, fast forward to today, tell us what do you do and who do you help? 

Bev Feldman

So nowadays, I help online solopreneurs to set up seamless automation on Convertkit without using icky-feeling email marketing tactics. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Ooh. All right. There’s a lot, but I want to get into this. Not that we’ll go into your whole journey here, but I do think it’s interesting how you have shifted and pivoted and just also flat out, maybe, completely switched your business over the years. And I always like to highlight that when I know someone has that history because success is not this linear thing. And I also, I don’t think that this is just for this year, but a lot of people have been talking about how they’re seeing people describing their businesses and starting something new. And I’m like, I can think of people who’ve done that every single year. And I could think of all the years that I’ve done that of, oh, I have a new podcast. I think there’s something about new year energy where people are just like, I’m done with this, or I have this thing and I want to run with it. And I love hearing how people have done this. So you just give us a little peek into what you were doing before you started doing this? 

Bev Feldman

Yes, so I started out my first venture into online business ownership as a jewelry designer in metalsmith. So I started out on Etsy and then eventually had my own website. So I was selling jewelry for a while. And then, that’s really how I started out. And then actually, when I was back in the day in All Up In Your Lady Business, I had done a book called The Busy Mom’s Guide to Creativity. It’s like a self-care journal for moms to bring more creativity into their lives. Because from this jewelry business, I had seen, for me, the value of having a creative outlet and balancing that with motherhood. So that’s really where I started. And then it’s funny how you mentioned like, oh, new year. Scrap everything and start something new. And that had happened with me a few years ago when I started to move away from that jewelry business and decide to just start a blog on eco-friendly living. 

Jaclyn Mellone

I didn’t know this. I’ve missed this part. Okay. I miss this chapter. It makes sense though. 

Bev Feldman

It’s funny because I don’t talk about it a lot, but it periodically just pops up. And I think it does very much fit into this journey. One, because as I mentioned, I was known amongst my friends as being a bit of a hippie But also, because part of what brought me to that blog as I had a lot of experience as a blogger for my first business. Those two things combined are what eventually led me to where I am today, helping people specifically on convert kit with the tech part of their email marketing. Because I don’t think I would have had this business if I hadn’t dabbled in all those other things and gotten really familiar with email marketing and this platform in particular. 

Jaclyn Mellone

It’s so true. You’re a great example of this. But I’ve found that bloggers or some of the best hires, or just as a blogger, you learn so much. And so whether that’s on someone else’s team or start your own, it really gives you this, I don’t know, you get a lot of experience doing a lot of different things online. And you can see where your strengths are, where you geek out the most, and then follow that path. So yes, I see how all these dots connect. And I remember your interview on All Up in Your Lady Business, it was a while ago. But I remember you talking about and thinking about what brought us joy as children, and bringing that back. And that always stuck with me. So yes, it’s cool to see how things have changed over the years. And going back to school when you were good at Math. Okay, I’m not surprised that you’re good at the tech side of things and geeking out with convert kit. But I like how you bring this other stuff to the table to that because of your different experiences, but also just of who you are. So how was your approach to email marketing different than you would say like the generic online world pushing us to do email marketing? How was your approach a little bit different? 

Bev Feldman

Yes, there are a few things. One, I really look at email marketing even if it’s automated. And I think especially if it’s automated then it’s all about creating a connection with your audience. So I think when people hear automation, they’re like, how could that possibly be a way to connect with your audience? But I really look at it in terms of how you write your emails and inviting people to actually respond back to your emails. So while the emails that I send out might be automated, if someone emails me back and I read their emails and I respond back,  there’s no way to automate that. And I don’t want to.  I love hearing from people. And either like, if they have a question or a positive way I influenced them, that totally makes my day. And I want them to know that I value their time and the energy that they put into it. So that’s one piece of it. And then the other piece is thinking if you’ve been in this online business world enough, there are certain things, certain ways that we’re all taught about the right way to market our business. And at this point, I’d say a lot of them are getting overplayed. Things like this whole idea of a tripwire. And first of all, why do we call that a tripwire? 

Jaclyn Mellone

The worst name ever. It really is. 

Bev Feldman

I told my husband about this term a few years ago, he looked at me he’s like, what? Why is that a term you’re using for online marketing? I’m like, I don’t know, but that’s the route everyone’s using.  Not to say that you can’t or shouldn’t be able to make money from selling products or services that are really helping your audience. But I look at it as, the main goal isn’t to make money. For me, I don’t want to sell someone a low-cost product that they’re never going to use only because they were pressured to make that purchase in the moment. I want people to buy things or hire me because they feel like it’s a good fit. So that’s really the other way that I’m starting to look at and move towards with helping people with email marketing. That a lot of these things are all about creating a false sense of urgency and pressuring people to make the sale and not trusting our audience to know if and when it’s the right time for them to make the purchase. I’m trying to move away from that and show that I trust you as someone on my list to know what’s the right time and what’s the right thing for you in that moment.

Jaclyn Mellone

I resonate with this so much. Do you have a better name for a tripwire? I know that there are other words that I use for it, but I’m just blanking at the moment. 

Bev Feldman

Yes. Totally, I’ve seen an easy yes offer. And an easy yes offer doesn’t necessarily have to be a time-based thing. That’s like the other main phrase. Tripwire really has that sense of urgency like do this right now or something… 

Jaclyn Mellone

I’m trapping you into doing… with that word. 

Bev Feldman

I don’t want people to believe, oh, why did I make that purchase? And then resent me and lose almost that sense of trust.  

Jaclyn Mellone

That’s such a good point. And I love the clarity here too because the problem isn’t with making an offer in a short period of time. So in case, anyone is unfamiliar with which, if you’re listening and you’re like, I have no idea what a tripwire is. Oh, I love that. I love that. I’m here for that. You likely do know. But essentially, if you don’t know what it is, it’s a term that is used to describe if one somebody opts-in to something and then there’s an offer immediately on the thank you page or something like that. And a lot of times, it’s time-based. To your point, it’s available all the time. But it’s like, there’s a timer. And so, you can only get this deal for how long. But really, if you didn’t get the deal, you could probably just go opt-in to the thing with a different email address. Start that clock again. Maybe there’s an IP address, well, who knows. But it’s this full sense of urgency of we’re going to give you this offer for just the next 10 minutes and forces people to make a really fast decision. But this idea of you’ve opted into something, you’re interested in something, I have something for sale that you might want, that’s not icky. So what’s a way that you’ve seen that done that feels a little bit better for user experience? 

Bev Feldman

Well, first of all, I always recommend to people that however they get onto your list, you should have some thank you page. One is to build a brand or awareness. But also, if you’ve ever signed up for someone’s list, and then it’s like, thank you. And you’re like, okay, well what? Where’d my email go? And what’s happening next? I think you pay just a good way to welcome people and explain to them what’s happening next. And it’s not to say that you can’t put an offer there. You just said, you can still put an offer there but maybe not put so much pressure on the person. So that’s one way. Or you could still send them the offer in an email. Again, without that pressure like, oh, I mentioned this on the thank you page. I really think it will help you with whatever your opt-in is. Take this, implement that thing you signed up for. Because let’s be real. A lot of us sign up for free things, and then never do anything with it. My goal for my list, I mean, I’m not so naive to believe that everyone who signs up for my email list is going to immediately implement the thing that they signed up for. But my goal is that eventually, they’ll at least take some piece of it. So if I have something that will help them in the process, I don’t feel bad selling them to them. After all, I do have a business to run. But I don’t want them to feel pressured into making that choice if it’s not the right time for them, or they’re just never going to implement it. I don’t want there to be buyer’s remorse. 

Jaclyn Mellone

I totally get that. Absolutely, so we’re appropriate. But maybe we start backing away from those high-pressure sales tactics that are going to get you more refunds or just people that are like, I love how you put it as losing trust because the whole concept with that easy yes offer, as you said before. Is that you’re building trust is that someone buys something at a lower price and that they have a good experience with you and they want to continue with you with something else. And so, if that high-pressure experience makes them lose trust with you, then that’s not contributing towards your bigger goals.

Bev Feldman

Yes, exactly. 

Jaclyn Mellone

So when it comes to the automation side of things, is there anything, I guess before we go into positives, I guess, is there anything else that you’re seeing? Any other tactics that are maybe designed in a way that it’s maybe supposed to be whether it’s feeling more personalized or to get more sales or something like that? But maybe it’s a little bit more overdone now or is having that opposite effect like ” tripwire” that you’ve advised people to maybe rethink or stop doing. Any other tactics that you’re like, eh, maybe don’t do that anymore or give that a second thought? 

Bev Feldman

I think there are a few, and I can’t take credit for coming up with these on my own by any means. But people putting it out there that maybe when we write our sales pages, instead of focusing so much on how life just sucks so bad when you don’t buy this thing, I think there is, and again, I’m not a copy expert. But I think there is a way to highlight the benefits of what you’re selling without drilling in this idea that things are going to be bad for you if you don’t. 

Jaclyn Mellone

On the automation side, is there anything that doesn’t sit right with you or just annoys you? 

Bev Feldman

Yes. I do think the overuse of countdown timers, again, sometimes you have something that is legitimately time-based like you’re offering a live workshop and the doors are going to close because it’s going to be past the time, or you do legitimately have a set number of spaces in your program and those are filling up. I think in those senses and a countdown timer that you can have set up in your email marketing platform can be helpful. But I think if all your emails are full of countdown timers, then I think that’s just a little overplayed.

Jaclyn Mellone

That’s a little much. What do you think about putting people’s names in the emails? 

Bev Feldman

You mean in the body? 

Jaclyn Mellone

I guess anywhere. I’m not against it. But for so many times, I think, so I’ll be typing my name fast. And so weird letters are capitalized. Or it’s like, I’ll put my email in instead of my name. And so then I get these emails and it feels like they’re using that automation to put my name and to make it more personal. But there’s something about it that is because of how I have done it, it’s very obvious it’s not firsthand and it has the opposite effect. I know I’m not the only one that does this, but this is also like a me thing. So I’m curious as a whole. And I also, I guess, maybe because of situations like that, I tend to not really use people’s names in emails. When I start an email, I don’t do the automated name. Sometimes we will put it buried in somewhere. And I find that it almost has a better effect. But I don’t know best practices with anything like that. And so, I was just curious you were seeing anything or what your thoughts were. 

Bev Feldman

It’s funny as you’re saying this, because I do start my emails usually like, hey, so-and-so. It’s funny because sometimes when I write actual legitimate personal emails to people, I might just put, hey or hey there. It’s not the person’s name. But then I was thinking, oh well, sometimes I do. So I don’t actually have a good answer for that because on the one hand, I think it is nice to see an email that’s addressed specifically to you. But on the other hand, as you said, we all make typing errors. And I’ve certainly looked at my subscribers and I’m like, ooh, every time they’re receiving an email, it’s saying like their full name or something. That the capitalization’s a little wonky. And so I do think of it, so I wish I had a good answer for you. I personally still like doing it. But again, I think it’s one of those things that you should just do what feels right for you. If it doesn’t feel right to put, hey or dear so-and-so’s subscriber’s name there, then don’t. Again, it’s following what feels right to you. And if something isn’t sitting right then maybe not do that. 

Jaclyn Mellone

It’s simple, but how often do we take the time to just think about the things that we’re even doing with this? We just do what other people are doing or we’ve been told to do. And I’m more of the kind of person that, I’ll message someone, and I don’t know. I messaged my cousin last night and I hadn’t talked to her in three weeks and I was just like, which was the Ted last episode that you didn’t like? There was no, how are you doing? It’s just like a random thought. And it tends to be how I communicate. It’s just like getting right into things through messages. I guess more. I’m not really an emailer, which I’m curious to talk about it a little bit more with you too because I think I have some resistance to email because I’m just not an, I don’t know. We’ll get into that in a minute. But that’s my style more and everyday stuff. What were you going to ask me, because I’m starting to complain about email? 

Bev Feldman

I’m going to ask because I actually really loved the emails that you send out for your business. I think they’re great. I love reading your emails. Just the way you start with a story and then tie it into what it is that the subject of your email is. It’s funny because I was thinking to them like, oh, I haven’t gotten an email from Jaclyn. Obviously, I know when you send your emails, they’re not directly to me. But I find so much joy in reading them. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Well, thank you. That means a lot. And I think that’s also part of the problem. Because I know I can write well, because I put thought and intention into it. During times were, and this month I’ve had a lot of life going on. We’ve had a lot of stuff personally going on. We’ve had a lot of really exciting things in the business compared with a lot of just life happening outside of it. And that’s an easy thing for me to let go of. And then I’m not as consistent with it, and I’ve had a hard time having someone else take it over for me because, how do you do that? I have had someone help with, okay like, we have someone who writes our show notes and she’s stopping. So we’re rethinking that. But she would also do something to do for the newsletter for me. And I would basically rewrite it, but her having started something, gave me at least an idea or made me think like, I would see one sentence in there like, oh, I should write about that. And that would be enough to trigger it. But I could never actually just copy-paste what she did. I have such a distinct style and it feels so personal. And so that, I think, I probably make it too hard for myself like, how do I just make it where it’s generic emails but still feeling that connection? I don’t know, those are my personal problems and we don’t need to talk about the copywriting piece of it. But yes, I think I know I’m not alone with that, but other people are a lot better at staying consistent with the emailing than I am. 

Bev Feldman

Well, I have to say, I think to your point of about what to write, I think so many of us, and myself included, get really stuck on the writing piece of it. And I think a lot of us just overthink it. It’s like you want it to sound like you, but you also want it to sound intelligible. Or like reflective of you, and that’s why you don’t want necessarily someone else to write it. So for one thing, I just want to say to you and everyone else listening that you’re not alone when it comes to getting stuck in it. And then to your point though about the consistency, that’s part of why I believe so strongly in setting up automated emails. Because we all have things that come up in our lives and we want to show up consistently. And sometimes life just doesn’t make that very realistic. And so for me, with my own email marketing, and when I work with clients, I’d really recommend at least some automated welcome sequence. So that no matter what you had going on in your life, you know that when someone signs up for your list, they’re going to get at least a few consistent emails from you. And for me, I’d take it a little bit step further. And I do have longer series of automated emails that go out. I have to say, it’s from Boss Mom Dana Malstafflike 90-day nurture sequence that I used. And I have adapted it to make it feel like working with my business. And it relieves some of that pressure to feel like, okay,  it’s a new week, I have to write a new email because I did find when I was doing live newsletters, I felt so much pressure and it almost made it harder to show up live. And then the longer you go without emailing, the harder it is to get back into it because you worry like, does anyone remember who I am anymore? Do they still resonate with what I have to say? And that’s why I personally like having automated emails set up. They still sound like me. And like I said, if someone replies to them, I still reply back. But it alleviates some of that pressure. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Ooh. Okay. So this is intriguing to me because, so this psychologically makes sense because it’s like, okay, those 90 days, you know that you’re going to be consistent because that automated sequence is set up. And you also are able to really highly curate that experience for them. That feels more authentic because it’s not like, oh, let’s do a welcome sequence. But like the welcome sequence is really just a sales sequence with a little bit more about me or something in it. And so you’re planning out what you want that customer journey to look like for 90 days. And then if you’re not, so but once someone is connected with you, once you’ve had that connection, you have a little bit more grace. You’re like, oh, I haven’t seen an email from you for a while. Do you still know that I exist? Obviously, it’s probably better if you are getting that consistent email. But once you have that built-up relationship and rapport, it’s not as crucial that you’re consistent every week. Versus, in the beginning, it’s probably very crucial or someone literally is like, I have no idea who this person is. 

Bev Feldman

Yes. And that’s the thing. When you think about having automated sequences is, there are times when someone signs up for your list and you happen to be in the moment, be launching something live. And so they’ve gone from just signing up from your list to you now pitching them about your life product. And they’re like why? And that’s why I like doing some in-between so that people can get to know you and decide for themselves if you’re a good fit, or at least start to have a sense of who you are before then they start getting pitched or be in your products and services.

Jaclyn Mellone

So on the techie side of that, without getting too in the weeds, but when someone ops in they’re tagged into this 90-day welcome sequence. And then when you’re live launching, you are excluding the people in the 90-days sequence? Or do you avoid that? 

Bev Feldman

This is a great question. So there’s a couple of pieces. So I do have a welcome sequence and then it feeds into 90 days of, well, at this point, it’s four months of emails after that. I personally don’t do that many live emails. If I do, I exclude everyone in the welcome sequence. So I use convert kits.

Jaclyn Mellone

How long is the welcome sequence? 

Bev Feldman

It spans about two weeks. It’s hard to remember off the top of my head. So I will exclude those people. And then if I am doing something live, I basically, turn off the other email sequences so people aren’t getting multiple emails from me in a day. It occasionally happens, but I want to make sure that I’m not like, have you ever had a time where you’ve been on someone list and you can tell you’re in some email sequence and you’re also getting live emails at the same time, and you’re like, what is going on? There are just too many emails. And I’m trying to make sure to avoid that. And that’s what I do when I work with clients. It helps set some of those things up in the background. So if they’re doing something live, they know how to turn off these sequences, these automated emails so that their audience is just getting those “live emails” from them. I say, quote-unquote, because they might be prescheduled. But they’re more live than something that’s fully automated. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Gotcha. Okay. And when you turn them off, you’re just pausing it so then after the launch, you can turn it back on and they’ll still keep getting those emails?

Bev Feldman

Yes. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Okay. I like that. The other question I had for you with this is, so for those of us that have multiple opt-ins, what are we supposed to do? What do we do? There are definitely key opt-ins that I have, but there’s also just a bunch lingering. And so, as those of us that have been around for a while, how many welcome sequences do we need? Do we need a custom one for each one? And then I guess my biggest concern would be that, let’s say, someone comes in and they take my quiz and then they give it the welcome sequence. And then they go into this 90-day, if I ever get my act together that much nurturing thing that’s like a dream right there. Oh, and so that happens. But then at week four, they opt-in for the authority building action plan and they go through that welcome sequence, which is actually 30-days for that. How do I stop them from getting added to the other thing again? Or because they’re already in there. I don’t know, this is where my brain starts to hurt. But I wouldn’t want them to keep getting it. Because even after the 90 days, I guess, so answer that. But then also, if that happened six months later, and so they technically weren’t going through the 90-day thing anymore, would that reactivate? Because you don’t want that where they’re getting the same emails again for three months. That would be really annoying like, this all looks familiar.

Bev Feldman

Such great questions. So there are a couple of different things going on. One, making sure that people don’t get the same automated emails over and over again. And the other piece is, what if they’re already in this automated email and now they’ve signed up for this challenge, and I don’t want them to get multiple emails from these different pieces at once. So it’s great. I actually just helped a client with that second one, which basically they are, obviously, too complicated to explain in a short podcast interview. But there are ways within a lot of email marketing platforms such as Convertkit and ActiveCampaign. A lot of these will allow you, if a subscriber or someone on your list, if someone signs up for something, it overrides the thing that they’re in. So for example, you’ve got someone in three months of automated emails, and then in month two, they sign up for your 30-day challenge. You want their focus to be on that 30-day challenge. So there’s a way to set it up that if they’ve signed up for that 30-day challenge to pull them out of the other, that 90 days sequence. Let them finish up the 30 days that they’re currently in. And then drop them back into the 90-day nurture. 

I can speak to Convertkit because I had to come up with a workaround. But basically, with some email marketing platforms, you have the choice. You can say, a subscriber can only get this email once or they can get it multiple times. So if you haven’t set that they can only get it once even if their automation has it set to drop them and put them at that email, it’ll just skip that email, if that makes sense. There are a lot of technical pieces here. 

Jaclyn Mellone

A lot of technical pieces, which is why we have people like you that can help with us. And your specialty is Convertkit, which I’m a big fan of Convertkit. I use them for a long time. I spoke at their conference. I’m an affiliate for them. I currently use ActiveCampaign. And the reason why people have asked, and it was nothing that Convertkit, I didn’t like anything with ConvertKit, it was just I love MemberVault, which is where I host my courses and freebies. I love that platform and just the way that they have it set up and they’re actually moving more in this direction, I believe, is that it is designed for ActiveCampaign. There are ways that you can use it with Convertkit like there are hooks. There are these things you can do, but it was designed with ActiveCampaign in mind. And so it made the most sense at the time to just switch to that. Convertkit is great. I saw someone who might be on Mailchimp or MailerLite or the pretty one… You knew what I meant. Thank you for being my brain today. Oh, so someone that’s on, and I don’t know what the capabilities are on these different ones. I don’t expect you, too, either. But let’s just say someone’s on something that doesn’t have as much robust automation. At what point do you recommend they switch to something? Do you say like, you know what, these platforms aren’t that much? As soon as you can afford to pay for it, dive in and you can grow with it? Or should they wait until they have X number of subscribers or X number of what have you? How do you decide when you’re ready to switch to a program like that?

Bev Feldman

Yes, so I would say that, first of all, the best email marketing platform is two pieces. One is the one you’ll actually use. So if you sign up for one, you’re like, this is way too complicated, and therefore never email your list. That’s probably not the best one to be on. But, two, is being on one that integrates with other platforms you’re currently using. So like you said, you were on Convertkit, and then you were using MemberVault and it just wasn’t a good fit. So that’s why you switched. And I think a lot of times for people, I always recommend that it’s better to start on one that you can grow into especially a lot of them have a lot of different pricing tiers that make it really accessible. But I would say, if you’re running into a lot of like your business is growing and your platform is just bumping into so many issues with it. And then it’s probably worth the time and money and effort to switch it onto something that is a little more robust.

I started at a Mailchimp for my first business. And when I switched to Convertkit, it actually was not the right fit at the time. When I had my jewelry business, it was not really a platform for people who sell products. I guess not for a physical product-based business platform. So I would never recommend that to anyone. But where I am now, I think it’s great. I think if I ever run into issues like you, where it’s like, okay, it’s great but it’s not working with what I needed to do. And then that’s a good time to switch. I will say though, it’s not a good idea to keep switching platforms. One, because you’re going to waste a lot of time. Two, because from my understanding, it could impact deliverability if you’re constantly switching around. And you’re just going to waste a lot of your time finding the perfect one. I will say, I don’t think there is a perfect platform. Again, it’s the one that you will use and that you’re most comfortable with, or maybe not most comfortable with, but the one that you will use because you’re as comfortable with it as you can be. And also, it fits with whatever other platforms you’re using.

Jaclyn Mellone

Excellent advice. So on the automation front, I love how you are so human-focused in a world, in a niche that is very much about everything being automated in everything. And bridging that gap of like, it can be automated and feel personal. So having the welcome sequence, having this 90-day nurture, are there any other automation that you’re like, okay, once you get those down, do this automation, or do you have a favorite one? Or I don’t know, ones that you’re like, everyone needs to have these couple, what comes to mind? 

Bev Feldman

Yes. I really like what they call the abandoned cart sequence. It comes from my understanding from the e-commerce world where, oh, you put somebody in your cart and then didn’t finish purchasing, which that I do find creepy. But there are times that like, oh, this workshop, someone has coming up so I’m going to use a personal example. I’m doing a workshop next week on doing cold subscriber re-engagement campaign. Which, by the way, that’s one that’s definitely an automation that might be worth setting up. But people click on the links and I want to just check in with them if they don’t purchase it. Not to be creepy like, oh, I’m watching you. But like, just to check in, oh, did you have any questions? I will say that it does straddle that fine line between being a little creepy and also that human touch. But how many times have we looked at something and said, oh yes, I want to do that? I’ll come back to it later. And then we forget. I look at it a little bit like that, too.  Maybe there’s interest and they got distracted, and they are legitimately interested. Being that I do automations and email marketing, I actually get very embedded in my emails. So I do say, by the way, this is an automated email that you’re calling an abandoned cart sequence. Mostly because I also like to use it as a teaching opportunity. And I recognize most businesses that would not worth to do that. It would just be like, what are you talking about? But the other thing, I briefly mentioned was, some platforms don’t really allow you to automate it. I do think ActiveCampaign does. They call it, hold subscriber re-engagement campaign, which I hate the technicality of it. But basically, meaning, you’ve been on someone’s list for a certain amount of time and you’re either not reading or you’re not engaging with their emails.

And while I do think there’s value in everyone who’s on your list, whether or not they ever actually buy from you or hire you, I do think it’s also important to make sure that you have a clean list. One, so that you’re not clogging up people’s inboxes. Two, so that the people who do want your emails, they show up in their inboxes because from what I understand that if enough people aren’t opening your emails, it could overall impact the deliverability of your email. So people legitimately find value in what you have to offer. You want to make sure that they’re seeing your stuff and having too many people on your list who are not engaging with your emails at all could impact that. And so it’s good to reach out to people who are not engaging just to verify like, okay, it looks like it’s been a while. Just want to make sure you want to stay on my list. If not, no hard feelings. If you do, click here. Or here’s this really helpful piece of information that will help you with whatever it is that I’m teaching you through my email marketing. So I think that’s another really important one to do. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes. Oh my gosh. My brain, I have all these ideas swirling. So I love hearing you talk about this. Oh, and there are actually things I want to talk to you about, but I’m diverting my own attention because I’m like, okay, while you’re here, I want to make sure I ask you things that have just been on my mind ongoing. So there have been some big changes in the email marketing world. And I know we talked about this very briefly on Instagram DM at one point. But iOS has changed its permission settings. And that can affect what our open rates look like, what’s going on there? And is there anything that we should be changing or doing, or just rethinking what our expectations are as a result? 

Bev Feldman

Great question. So I think that the two main things that we often look at with email marketing is an open rate and click-through rate. So open rate being how many or a percentage of people who received your email and actually opened it. And then what percentage of people actually clicked on it. So, unfortunately, with the iOS update, it is possible that, depending on people’s settings that even if they open your email, it may not show up. So looking solely at open rates may not be the most accurate reflection. It’s possible that more people are opening your emails than it appears to be. I will say for my understanding of click-through rates that that still should be tracked. I could be wrong on that, but that was just my understanding of this. So a lot of my emails that I send out personally, there is no goal other than to educate. So there’s not necessarily a link to click to. But I have seen and I’ve started experimenting with a little bit like linking to something in the email that isn’t something I’m selling or whatnot but is relevant, but it’s not really real. It’s relevant to the emails, but not relevant to my business. For example, I have an email where I was talking about having a bunch of people named Samantha on my phone, and how I identified one who, now, is a good friend of mine. But I related it to the reason I have so many Samanthas is it was a really popular name for a while. So I linked to something that showed that. It’s nothing relevant to email marketing, but it’s just like a fun tidbit that maybe someone would click on it and just be like, what did she look through? 

Jaclyn Mellone

Ooh. Okay. I love that because that’s giving you a way to get that engagement and see the engagement in a different way that’s not just based on the open rate. But you’re also training your audience to click because not everything you’re asking to click is to go buy. And so that’s very cool. I don’t want to put you on the spot, but are there new expectations for open rates? I know there are always industry standards. I hate to ask something like that. But have you heard anything or is it too soon to tell with this big change? 

Bev Feldman

I honestly don’t know. I still think it is important to look at it, but just realize that it may not be super accurate. But I think I just want to bring it back because I did talk about the cold subscriber thing. Well, what if people are opening my emails and they’re not necessarily clicking. And looks like they’re not cool that I would recommend when you’re doing that. Just so you know, it’s possible that you are opening my emails. And for whatever reason, my email marketing software, isn’t allowing me to see that. So I know this sounds weird, but if you could just click on this link to confirm that you want to stay on, just so I know and I’ll keep you here because I would hate to have you leave if you actually want to see my emails. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes, ooh. Oh my gosh. I didn’t even think about this. So how long do you think, like, are you okay to go an extra couple minutes? 

Bev Feldman

Absolutely. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Okay. So this cold subscriber thing, I feel like, in the past, I’ve had team members set me up with three months. Or if somebody didn’t open an email for three months, then they would go through that sequence. Do you like three months with this in mind? Or should we maybe extend that a little bit longer? What do you think?

Bev Feldman

I feel like three months is a good time. But I think also, going back you mentioned you have these challenges, for example, as one of your opt-ins that it is possible. And I think especially with ActiveCampaign, it’s not native at this point to Convertkit. But I’m pretty sure ActiveCampaign allows you to score people. I don’t like to use that terminology because, again, there are people on our list. But you could, for something that has a series of emails when they first sign up, if they’re being scored and it looks like none of the emails are being opened then that may be a good time for that specific thing to say, hey, it looks like you haven’t clicked on any of the emails for the challenge that you signed up for. I just want to confirm if you want to stay on my list. If so, click here. Otherwise, the default is after a week, it will remove them. And I do that for something that I have set up on my thing that like, I have a small course that I had contributed with a bundle. And so, in order to get to the next lesson, people have to click on the link to the first lesson. And so if they don’t, it automatically checks and it’s like, oh, hey, you haven’t actually opened any of the emails. Just want to confirm that you want to stay here. So that could be one way. I think the three months is pretty good. I know Convertkit, they define cold subscribers as anyone who’s been on for 30 days and hasn’t engaged in 90 days. You could go longer, but I think three months is okay. If no one’s opened your emails within three months of being on your list, it’s probably a low chance that they’re going to. 

Jaclyn Mellone

So Bev said 30 days, I had a strong visceral reaction to this because I’m pretty sure because I haven’t sent an email in 30 days to my whole list. And I’m like, well, what happens if you just don’t email them? And they don’t… 

Bev Feldman

Well, yes. You do run the risk if people aren’t getting any emails from you… 

Jaclyn Mellone

By default, they’re not opening. And then you create your own problem. 

Bev Feldman

But you’d be surprised. In the past, especially my other business, I’ve sent these emails and I’ve had shockingly high open rates for the people who are supposedly cold and then stayed on my list. And I’m like, oh, I think people are always pleasantly surprised in some way. But especially people who are reading your emails regularly, whether or not it’s been like a week or a couple of months, they’re probably going to be like, yay, Jaclyn sent me an email. Let’s see what she wrote today. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Oh, all right. You’re starting to inspire me or guilt me, I don’t know. Some combinations also. So, all right, well, you definitely have inspired me and I have some ideas that I want to implement from this. I really appreciate you sharing and giving all the ins and outs here. How can we stay in touch with you? 

Bev Feldman

Yes, so you can connect with me on Instagram. My handle is your.personaltechfairy. And also on my website, yourpersonaltechfairy.com. You’ll see an opt-in on my website. And all those emails that you get are automated. I promise you, if you replied to any of them, I will reply back. And that will be me. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Love it. All right. Thank you so, so much, Bev. 

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