[On Air Coaching] How to Overcome Imposter Syndrome with Suzanne Dressler

Jaclyn Mellone

Welcome to Go-To Gal episode number 194, I think. Whoo. We are getting up there. As always, I’m your host, Jaclyn Mellone. And today, we are not even just talking about imposter syndrome. Today we have an on-air coaching call with a listener, with a friend within an amazing human and businesswoman who is struggling with imposter syndrome. And you’re going to get to hear her talk about her experience with it. And I will coach her through this. 

So we have talked about imposter syndrome a bunch of times over the years on the Go-To Gal Podcast. And it’s a topic that I plan to bring up time and time again, because let’s be real, as experts who were growing brands as the go-to authority, we’re building businesses based on our expertise, or we’re leveraging our expertise in our personal brand to grow our business. And with that, things get personal. And when things get personal, imposter syndrome is bound to come up. Especially if we have grown up in any type of environment where perfectionism or achievement was really valued. But I found that pretty much everyone with whom I come in contact within this business world struggles with or has struggled with, or will probably be struggling with again in the near future imposter syndrome.

You probably see it all around you too. In fact, I hope you do. If you don’t, it is because you’re not having those conversations. It doesn’t mean that everyone around you isn’t experiencing this necessarily. Or maybe you just need to have some more business friends, which may also be the case. But it’s an entirely different conversation.

So what exactly is imposter syndrome? I didn’t address this in the conversation, and I feel like you probably know. But in case you don’t know, I want to make sure we’re starting this off with the same understanding. So I don’t have a Webster’s Dictionary definition in front of me. Maybe I should have. But essentially, imposter syndrome, and what I’ve looked up in the past is when your self-perception, when the way that you’re looking and thinking about yourself does not live up to or doesn’t match the way that other people are seeing you. Okay, here we go, Wikipedia.

Imposter syndrome is a psychological pattern in which an individual doubts their skills, talents, or accomplishments. And has a persistent, internalized fear, yada yada, yada. So you get where we’re going with this. Some of the signs that you’re struggling with imposter syndrome are self-doubt. You’re doubting your abilities, you’re starting to attribute your success to other factors. I’m looking at an article now from Verywell Mind. So with a variety of sources for today’s episode, they say, berating your performance. But you’re going to be scrutinizing what you’ve done or not giving yourself that credit that you deserve. You’re afraid that you’re not going to live up to others’ expectations. You’re constantly overachieving. Sabotaging your own success. Ooh, we’ll come back to that one. And maybe just this pattern of setting very challenging goals, and then feeling disappointed or discouraged when you fall short.

I think this is probably a good time to bring up, which I wish I would have brought up before my coaching call with Suzanne today. So I’m going to bring it up with you. If you have not already taken the quiz that we recently came out with, it is the Which movie villain is sabotaging your success? You’re going to want to take that. You can take it for free at jaclynmellone.com/quit. 

Listen, “self-sabotage” because I don’t like to call it self-sabotage. We’re going to blame that sabotage on that movie villain, on that villain voice in your head, which is how I like to personify the inner critic. But the inner critic can totally and does go totally, hand-in-hand with imposter syndrome. And all of these things connect together.

We’re also going to cover a little bit of strategy in this call because I think it’s really, and I probably say this in my conversation with Suzanne, but to just look at mindset or to just look at strategy in a silo, you’re doing yourself a disservice. Very much commingled. It is not just about mindset or just about strategy. The two go hand-in-hand. 

Oh, what else did I want to tell you before we get into this coaching call? Something else that I didn’t get a chance to address during our call, but that Suzanne brings up. She’s like, do you ever suffer from imposter syndrome? Or she asked me in some form like that, and I think I answered another question and never directly addressed her question there. And I hope that this is obvious. But maybe it’s not, because I was actually surprised that she asked me that. And in thinking back, I’m like, I want to make sure that the listeners know this too. 

I am not an expert at this, because this is what I went to college for. Or I’m not a therapist. This is not my expertise because of education. My background education is in marketing and business. This is stuff that I have come to learn and develop some type of expertise with over the years because I’ve been in the freakin’ trenches with it myself. This is all stuff that I have struggled with, sometimes to a paralyzing point in my business. And these are not things that have only come up early on in my business or at major business transitions, they come up time and time again, which is why I am such a huge proponent of practicing a mindset like hygiene. It is something I proactively and reactively work on because we’re growing us, we’re stretching us, we’re pushing ourselves for different things and getting uncomfortable. This is the stuff that comes up, and I’ll talk more about this in the coaching call. 

But I just want to let you know that this is not me saying, for those of you with imposter syndrome… Imposter syndrome is something that I know very intimately and have been able to share my own experience, and what has helped me along the way because of that. So one thing that I’ll actually put in the show notes for you too. So this coaching call is not a comprehensive everything to-do for imposter syndrome. This is very much tailored to who I’m talking to in the conversation, what the struggles she’s telling me she’s going through, and the things that I think are going to support her most in breaking out of that pattern of imposter syndrome and going towards her goals. This is not everything that someone could possibly do to conquer imposter syndrome. 

Now, I did write an article a few years back. But is definitely still very relevant called, The Biggest Productivity Killer in Women That No One Talks About. I wrote this for Entrepreneur a couple of years ago. We’ll put the link in the show notes. But it’s all about imposter syndrome, because when you’re in that place where you are just swimming in that, am I good enough-is this good enough-mindset, you’re going to procrastinate. You’re going to overthink. You’re going to redo. You’re either going to be putting it off or working on it until the un tint perfection. Whichever direction you go there, it is going to massively affect your productivity.

It’s going to massively affect the output and the success of your business. So this is no small thing. This is really huge. And I’ve found that that time that I felt this the most, but it forces me to work on myself the most. And then I am, and my business is so much better on the back end of it. So hopefully, I guess, whether you’re experiencing this now or whether you know this is something that comes up for you from time to time again, I am glad that we’re able to share this type of content with you in this way. I think that listening to someone talk about their own personal struggles with it just gives you a realness and a depth that you can’t get from me doing a Top 10 ways to conquer your imposter syndrome. Although that probably would also be a helpful episode. But that’s why I’ll put the link to that article into to give you a written version of some practical tips. But also, maybe a little bit more comprehensive than we can get into today.

Okay, so let’s get to it. This is a little bit longer than I normally talk about before an episode. So let’s get to it. I’m going to formally introduce you to our guest today, who’s here for on-air coaching, Suzanne. And then we will dive right into our coaching call. 

Suzanne Dressler is a professional actress, singer, podcast host, and business owner. She has traveled the country as an artist and has performed on some of the most famous stages in the country, including the Metropolitan Opera and 54 Below in New York City. She is the host of There’s A Word For That!, a thought-provoking podcast that focuses on a different word/ expression each week, and the way that we relate to it. She is also the owner and founder of Skyscraper Tutoring, LLC, a highly successful tutoring agency based in New York City. She loves gnocchi. I hope I’m saying, I wish I would have read this before I talk to her. So we say gnocchi, but I know some people say gnocchi. I don’t know. I never know how to say it. I’m Italian. I should probably know these things. Almond milk. I love almond milk too. Making lists, singing, yoga, boxing, and reading. Pink is her favorite color. Suzanne lives in the Upper West Side of Manhattan with her two kitties, Hamlet and Cressida. Jeez, I am not on my pronunciation game today. So that aside. Let’s get to it. Here is my coaching call with Suzanne. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Suzanne, I’m so excited to have you here today. 

Suzanne Dressler

Thank you for having me, Jaclyn. I’m so excited to be here. Truly, truly thankful. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Well, I so appreciate you being here and opening up. It’s making the magic of these on-air coaching calls possible. Okay, so let’s first go back in time to when you were growing up. What were you the go-to gal for back then?

Suzanne Dressler

That’s a funny question. Not funny, but that’s an interesting question because I never thought about that. I think that I was probably the go-to gal for singing because I was always singing everything. And I would sing to my friends and I would sing loudly, and sing in the car. But I have to say that I had a lot of energy when I was younger. I mean I still have a lot of energy, but when you get older it gets mitigated a little bit by life and being professional. When I was younger, I had a lot of energy. I think my friends and the people I knew relied on me. I don’t want to say that I was the life of the party because I wasn’t a huge partier, but I want to say that I was extremely outgoing and could be friends with anybody. I never knew that I was in a click. I felt that I had friends of all kinds. 

I went to a very diverse high school and I felt that I had friends in different groups. And I don’t know if other people saw me as that go-to gal for that, but I do think that I was a very loyal and good friend to people. And I had a lot of life. I had a lot of verve. And I really had a good time.

Jaclyn Mellone

I can see that. I can see all of those. 

Suzanne Dressler

But I’m also very studious. I was very, very academic and very focused. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Okay, so fast forward to today then, tell us, what do you do and who do you help? 

Suzanne Dressler

Okay, so I do several things. I’m a professional actress. I mean, actors’ equity. Musical theater, mainly singing, acting, and everything. And I also run a tutoring agency. So I started out when I graduated college many moons ago. Tutoring to support my acting habit as I call it. And it grew over the years and became bigger and like a side career. It enabled me to pursue what I love. And if I didn’t have it, I think I would’ve gotten out of the business a long time ago. If I didn’t have this way to make money doing something I really enjoyed, I wouldn’t have to do jobs that I hated. I was very lucky in that sense. I worked very, very hard and I still do. But I was lucky that I had gone to a good college. And I had the intelligence, and I had parents that sent me to a good school. I’m fully aware that I was lucky in that sense that I had the credentials to do this. 

So I run a tutoring agency called Skyscraper Tutoring. I tutor privately a lot of subjects. But I also have tutors that tutor for me for all the subjects that I can’t do. And it grew. It’s growing. It was a little slow growing at first. I didn’t really put in the time and effort. I’m not a business head. I am very much a creative mind. And this was a business, and I find tutoring creative. The business side of it is very, very much a business, and very much about marketing and about constant contacts and about keeping up with contacts. Because it’s really a business like so many businesses based on referrals. You don’t see ads in the subway or on buses for tutoring agencies as you do for big, massive companies.

It’s really word of mouth and business. And you have to have connections at the school, and families refer me to people or ask me, do you have a tutor that does this? And so, I’m actually rebuilding my website, which should launch in about a week which is exciting. And I started because of you and Farnoosh last summer. I started my own podcast on words called There’s A Word For That! because I’m obsessed with words and what one word can do in our life. One thing I’ve noticed from having this podcast is every guest that I have on, it’s fascinating how much they all are very connected to a word that they love. And how I knew going into this, that words have meaning because I tutor essays. I tutor college essays and I tutor high school essays. I’ve done helping kids, young adults with graduate school essays. I know how one word can change the entire structure and meaning of a sentence. But I didn’t know how much words meant to other people in all kinds of different fields until I started bringing guests on. And it’s really cool and fascinating to see how other people live their life by certain mantras like I do and by certain words like I do. 

Some people love the word perspective because of something they went through. Other people love the word gratitude. I had Loretta on, and we talked about the word celebrate, how she is the word celebration. And grief, and going through a loss like when I lost my dad and my friend. That was the very first episode. And I’ve had people write to me and say, you know, that episode was amazing. Not just grief, but other episodes that, well, I had never thought of it that way. That was so helpful. And that was the point of this, was I really actually wanted to help people. I want people to listen to a podcast interview, and I want them to listen to an interview and think, I’m not alone in that. That person actually knows what I went through, or wow, I never thought of it that way. 

A friend of mine said to me, I think it was the word perspective with my acting coach. She listened to it and she sent me a message on Facebook. And she said, I just listened to that episode. That was amazing. And she said I want my daughter to hear it. And I’m thinking, oh, that’s so, so neat that that episode can help someone who’s very young. 

Jaclyn Mellone

It’s so powerful. 

Suzanne Dressler

Very powerful. And words are powerful. They’re everything. The language, how we talk to ourselves, how we talk to other people can really help or harm life and our own lives. How we talk about ourselves and how we talk to ourselves, and it’s something I still struggle with. So I really wanted people to be, not just stimulated and enjoy the episodes, but really listen to the interviews and take something away that they can use in their own lives and in a positive way. In a way that furthers their own life or helps them through depression or helps them apply to a job, they were too scared to do so. Or to be able to say, oh, that person is grieving like I am. It’s so nice to hear other people express what I’ve been feeling. I don’t feel so alone. That was the point of the podcast for me when I started it. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Okay, so you have this tutoring business. You have this thriving podcast. I know you have some big goals. And I know the mindset has been getting in your way. So tell us a little bit about what’s going on, why are we here today for this on-air coaching call? 

Suzanne Dressler

When I was younger, I just thought that I could do anything. I graduated from Barnard, which is a very intellectual, strong mind-building, confidence-building school where you were taught that you’re an amazing woman from day one, and you can do anything. You’re smart enough and you’re talented enough. And you’re the kind of woman that’s going to change the world, which I think is amazing to teach young women that. And that’s the mantra, I think, of a lot of the seven sister schools. I don’t know the other ones. I only know Barnard. But I got an amazing education, and I never ever experienced sexism or thought that I couldn’t do something because I was a woman. I still don’t really think that’s true at all. And I owe a lot of that to the school. 

So when I graduated college, I was like, I’m going to be a Broadway star. I’m going to be married with three kids, but at that time I’m 27. And life was like, nope, not really. And so, I think what happened was over the years, starting in my thirties, the difficulty started settling in and reality started settling in. I realized that I’m really talented, but there’s a lot of other really talented people. And there’s a lot of other really talented people who are a lot further along in their careers, Suzanne, than you are. And I have a lot of, because I don’t have Broadway credits or because I haven’t been to not a ton of TV shows like some of my friends. It’s hard because I start to think, okay, well, intellectually I know I’m very talented and talented enough to be doing this whether it’s podcasting or acting, or even running my own business. But there’s a part of that compare and despair philosophy where I think to myself, okay, well, if I’m so talented, then why didn’t I get 50,000 downloads in my first season? If I’m so talented, how come I’m not in a Broadway show? And if I’m so talented, how come people aren’t banging down my doors to do X, Y, and Z? And I get stuck in that. And then what happens is instead of doing things to progress my life and to move forward, I start retreating. 

The imposter syndrome that I wanted to discuss, because I have it. And I couldn’t identify it. I just thought it was fear and oh, I’m worried. I’m not good enough. And I don’t like that term. I think the imposter syndrome, for me, speaks to me because it’s like, I’m not good enough. I don’t belong. And that’s something that I struggle with. When I was a little girl, I was very coordinated because I can dance well. But I was not athletic in the sense that I didn’t play a lot of sports when I was little.

So I was always the last kid picked for Dodgeball teams in gym class, and like, not a cool popular kid. And I think I still, it’s embarrassing to say but I’m going to say it on-air because I can’t imagine how I’m alone.  I think there’s still a part of me that sees myself that way. Even though I know that that’s not true. And I should be very proud, and I am very proud of the person I am in many ways. But there’s still that little nagging voice that says, oh, you’re just not good enough. Nobody wants you on their team. And nobody has said this to me at all as an adult, but it’s what I’m bringing. And I know that it’s holding me back. So I think the go-to gal, you, have probably experienced this with clients and coaching. I don’t know in your own life if you have, but I wanted to talk about that because I’ve realized over the past, especially during the pandemic during lockdown when we all had a lot of time to think about things. I realized that I do have this. And getting back into it now after the pandemic is really hard because I think I am having a little bit of, not pandemic fatigue anymore that I had, but more of this, I don’t know what I want to do. How am I going to do this? The momentum is gone from certain things. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Oh my gosh. Okay, so much good stuff here. There are so many things I want to respond to as we dive in. But one, with the pandemic fatigue, with it, not being that, but feeling that like, and I don’t know if I’ve mentioned this on the podcast recently but even if I have, it’s probably worth mentioning again. I was thinking about Glennon Doyle’s book, Untamed, and this is taking her metaphor to the extreme. But I just feel like, especially those of us who are more extroverted or who could use our energy from being out there and doing things, and we’ve been caged up in our homes. It’s like that wild animal that’s been caged up for so long, and then they lose that wildness. They lose that little bit of essence of how they really are.  And I feel like that a little bit. It’s like, okay, well, I’m used to being at events and hosting in-person masterminds, and speaking at events and going to events and all of that.

And without that, I feel like I lost that part of me a little bit. I’m trying to revive it. But I think that might be some of that energy loss that you’re feeling of like, okay, it’s not necessarily related to the pandemic, but it is. It’s not that fatigue, it’s something else. Ourselves as disconnected. I feel that. Yes, for sure. 

Suzanne Dressler

The energy loss, that’s it. I think because I was just taking notes on what you said. I lost that part of me that even during insecurities where I would be like, okay, I’m just going to show up at the audition anyway. I’m scared. I’m scared to do this song. I’m scared to sing in front of this Tony Award-Winning Director, but I’m going to do it anyway. But now, there’s like, I will say you’re right. It’s the energy, the momentum. Now, I’m living in a lot of fear and imposter syndrome, which I didn’t have this much fear before the pandemic.

I will say with my tutoring business, it’s the opposite because my tutoring business grew during the pandemic, which I’m grateful for and very, very lucky. Because I know how hard it’s been for so many people close to me. And I took advantage of that, and I said, okay. You’re lucky. Let’s keep the momentum growing. So I actually have a lot of momentum in my tutoring business right now. But I also still have imposter syndrome with that too, I think.

Jaclyn Mellone

Totally. I think this is disconnected for a moment because we grew significantly in 2020. In 2021, we’ll still see where things are going well. It’s like this disconnect of the business success, I guess for me, is disconnected from my own personal energy levels, if that makes sense. Like just missing that piece. So I don’t want anyone listening to think imposter syndrome comes up when you’re not doing well. I actually think it’s vice versa, because it’s when we’re getting outside of our comfort zone, and it’s when we’re pushing ourselves. And that could be because we’re having a lot of success and we’re getting pushed to that next level. It could also just be because we’re thinking bigger and putting ourselves in those situations where we are being stretched. That’s what brings up the imposter syndrome. When you are playing it “safe”. When you’re putting yourselves in networks where you are the most successful. Where you’re totally in that cozy little comfort zone, if you will. Imposter syndrome doesn’t come up. 

Suzanne Dressler

I never even thought of it that way. That makes total sense. 

Jaclyn Mellone

So something else you mentioned that I think is a really great point with imposter syndrome to illustrate is one of these, let’s say one of the things that’s like the curse of the expert, if you will. So, someone who’s just getting started with something, they have this called beginner’s luck, if you will. But there’s this fresh energy to them learning something. But they also don’t know what they don’t know. And with that can come in a lot of confidence that they maybe don’t necessarily deserve to have, but helps them. 

Suzanne Dressler

In different places. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes. And I think that that confidence of not knowing what you don’t know leads to the whole beginner’s luck thing because they just go out there and do it. They have this surge of I got this. I’m the best at this, whatever it is.  And as we become more of an expert at what we do, we know what we don’t know. We know what we don’t know. We’re more aware of what other people are doing. We’re comparing ourselves more. With that, it opens up the door for that comparison, but also for that imposter syndrome to really come in. I think they go hand-in-hand. 

Suzanne Dressler

Yes, that’s interesting, beginner’s luck because I do know that I had a ton of confidence when I graduated college, even though I didn’t know what I was doing. And I thought I never would have gotten cast. And when I got cast in, if I didn’t have that confidence because I didn’t know what I was doing. And I didn’t know that. It was like, whatever. I’m amazing. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes. And now, you’re looking and you’re like, who has these awards? Who has these credentials? Who am I to be doing this? Am I good enough to be doing this? Do I need those things in order to do this? Now, you’re intellectualizing all these questions that don’t really need to be asked. But you’re aware of them, and so these are things that are getting in your head. 

Suzanne Dressler

And with the podcast, it’s hard because there are so many right now. I don’t know. Every big magazine has one. Every big director has one. Every famous actor has one. And I’m thinking, well, I think I know my podcast is a great idea, and I know people like it. I’m not saying it’s going to be as popular as The New York Times Podcast. But how do I make it super successful for me, and have it get me to the next level? Because I have that voice saying, no one’s going to listen to this when they could listen to a million other podcasts with famous people and more established people. And I’ve listened to a lot of podcasts. Whether somebody is well-known or not, I have found, has nothing to do with the quality of if that’s a good podcast or not, which is very interesting. Because I think there’s a lot of popular podcasts that I don’t particularly think are that unique or interesting. 

I think some of the best podcasts are the ones by people who are not well-known or have a smaller following, or it’s just somebody’s passion to me, which is a lot more interesting. So how do I compete with those people? And do I even need to compete with those people from my podcast to be very successful? I don’t know. And that’s where I get the imposter syndrome. I’m still going to do my podcast because I love it so much, and I know I’m good at it. But I do wonder if, me, comparing myself to the bigger names and the bigger podcasts and the more popular ones are holding me back from pushing myself. There are things I could be doing, and I’ve spoken to Anne about this. There are things that I could be doing that I’m not doing. And I do wonder sometimes, is it because I don’t have the time? Or is it because I don’t think it will make a difference, and don’t think anyone’s actually going to listen to it? If that makes sense. 

Jaclyn Mellone

It does. It does. I love to say that your business can grow at the speed of your beliefs. And if those beliefs are no one’s going to listen, you’re not going to do those things. So diving into those beliefs and replacing them with more supportive beliefs is going to help you grow because those beliefs aren’t going to be stopping you along the way. Now, we talked about this before I pressed record. But I want to do it on-air too, just so everyone listening can follow along with us too. We’ve already dove in quite a bit here but I know we have a lot more to do. What would be the most beneficial for you today from this on-air coaching session? What are you hoping to get out of this at the end of our call today? I realize we’re one isolated call here, but we can do a lot in a short amount of time. So what are your goals for that? 

Suzanne Dressler

I would love some clarity on why I’m having some of the imposter syndrome that I’m having. And I would love some clarity on how to move forward despite it? Well, be scared but do it anyway, is a motto I’ve heard. And yes, that’s fine. But when you’ve got, whatever, we all know that. And yes, it’s true. And there’ve been many times when I’ve been scared, but I did it anyway. I still have that voice telling me, okay, it doesn’t matter because you’re not going to get it, and you’re not good enough. And they’re not going to call you for that job. And they’re not going to call you. You can’t ask that person to be on your podcast, they don’t know who you are. You’re nobody. I would love to have some strategies to not, I’m not saying that I won’t hear that voice, but to not listen to it or give it credence. And it’s a lot harder than just saying, don’t listen to it, don’t give it credence when it’s real. As you said, I would love the podcast or any of my projects and businesses to grow at the speed of my beliefs. That’s what I would like. To have the kind of belief I want and need for my podcast and my business and my performing projects to grow and to not hear that imposter syndrome in my head. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Now, did you take the villain quiz?

Suzanne Dressler

No. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Oh, okay. You’re like, what is this? Okay. So for you and for anyone listening who hasn’t, I have a free quiz that is, which movie villain is sabotaging your success? And so, what it does is we personify the different types of voices that are in your head by using a fun movie villain. And that’s a way to make it fun. Something that can be a little bit uncomfortable. But that helps too to know which kind of voice is in your head because there are different ways to handle it. There’s a lot of different personality types, and we all have a different type of voice in our head. So we won’t go too much into that because I want to help you with things we can talk about, but that’s definitely something I recommend you take that I think will help too in taking this to the next level. 

So to narrow this down a little bit, one, I want you to get clear on what you want, what’s important to you. Because it’s also very easy to get swept away with other people’s goals, other people’s dreams, what you think you should be doing. And we want to really prioritize what you actually want. Now, I realize we’re here talking about imposter syndrome. But these two go hand-in-hand because it almost feels like you’re frozen in this state of comparison of imposter syndrome. And I think if you have this clear path of like, well, this is the goal that I have, then some of these other things that other people are doing may not matter at all. And we could literally just turn the off switch on even paying attention to them. 

Suzanne Dressler

Interesting. That actually makes a lot of sense. It’s very grounded but practical advice that makes a lot of sense. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes. So off the cuff, what are some of the goals for the podcast? Or do you want to have the podcast itself just grow and generate revenue? Or are you trying to connect this to your other business or start another business from the podcast? A lot of things here. But do you have a clear goal of what you want to do with this? 

Suzanne Dressler

I have goals. They’re not as clear. I keep thinking that I have to have a certain amount of followers and listeners or a certain amount of downloads, let’s say, because it’s hard to find who’s following you and who’s not. A certain amount of downloads before I can present it to a book publishing company, or before I could present it as a multimedia outlet, like team up with a magazine or team up with a TV show or something. Those are huge lofty goals. And I don’t know if those are realistic, but that’s the voice that I hear. Like I would love for it to be because I love the podcast so much, I just want to keep doing it on a bigger and bigger level, and have a bigger platform to reach more and more people. But I do know that downloads are important. And I do know that visibility is important.

So I would love for the podcast to be featured in some, you know, even if it’s just a blurb about podcasts to listen to, I would love for it to be featured in a popular newsletter that has hundreds of thousands of subscribers. And I would love for me to team up with a big national publication or a magazine. Those are the things I see as the immediate goals. Those are the goals that I’m clear on. As far as like, I would eventually love it to be something that I could write a book on and have it be a real book because it’s about words and language. I think it might be a really cool publication or a column. I don’t know. Those are the things that I’m thinking would be a great column. I used to want to be a journalist. So this is where my passion for the podcast and the words come in. So those are some of the goals that I have for it right now. But again, I don’t know if they’re too lofty, or how to utilize the people I know. Because I know a lot of people in many different fields. And I get worried about being too aggressive, being too assertive. Again, that’s very much the imposter/ confidence issue. So in some ways, I do have a clear goal. To answer your question, some of my goals for my podcast are clear, but I’m not sure it’s laser-focused if that makes sense. 

Jaclyn Mellone

It does. Before you even said something, I could see a big media outlet or something being interested in your podcast. In some way, shape, or form, I absolutely saw that before you even said it. So definitely, I think that you’re in the right headspace thereof where this could go. And in terms of then being featured, having a column, eventually a book, these are not crazy goals. These all make a ton of sense. It sounds like the imposter syndrome is coming up around the audience size, not around the content. 

Suzanne Dressler

Yes. It sounds obnoxious…

Jaclyn Mellone

No. Own this. Own it. That’s not obnoxious. Say it. 

Suzanne Dressler

I know things that I am not good at. There are many things in life that I am not good at. But these are things I’m really good at. And I wouldn’t do a podcast on something. I know I could never be a surgeon. I know I couldn’t go to med school. There are things like, I won’t tutor math beyond a certain age because I know that I cannot do it. I will have other people do that for me. There are things that I am not like, I am not a great standardized test taker. I’m amazing at subjects like Spanish like the subject tests that I was really good at. But the SATs, I have other people tutoring because that’s not my specialty. And I’m smart enough to know what I’m not good at and what I excel at.

I do think I excel at words. And I do think that I’m very, very passionate about the words we choose. My mother’s a social worker, and there is a lot of therapy in her life. And she worked at a high school for years, and she’s done all kinds of grief counseling. She did counseling during COVID. There are things she’s done that are private that I can’t mention, but she’s done some amazing things in her life through her work.

And one of her mottos is, and she said this to me since I was a young girl, the words you use, Suzanne, have a lot of power. So don’t say something is terrible when it might not be terrible. Losing a game to another high school, that might suck, but it’s not terrible. She would say, having cancer is terrible. A teammate breaking their foot right before a big game, that’s pretty terrible. But losing a game, getting a bad grade on a test, they’re frustrating. But she always said, if you use appropriate words, your perspective on it becomes more appropriate. And if you use big catastrophic words, then you’re going to feel that way. And that was where, I think, that voice, that is a positive voice, that official voice was the impetus for the podcast. Because I’ve been taught growing up to be aware of how I speak about myself and how I use words to describe situations that may be negative. They’re not always as negative as we might think.

The more careful we are with the words we choose, I think her philosophy and I think her point was that, the happier we are. Because we can keep things in perspective that needs to be put in perspective. And reserve those really bigger, heavier words for situations that are truly deserving of them. I talked about that in my episode, Grief, that people were grieving during COVID like a restaurant closing or not being able to meet with their friends. And yes, that’s very, very hard. You’re not grieving that. You’re grieving with somebody you know dies from COVID, that’s grief. You’re watching doctors put their life on the line to save somebody else. They can grieve what they might lose. It makes bad situations worse when we use the worst possible word. And so, I did talk about some of that in grief. But back to your point, I’m very confident about my podcast and what it is. I just need ways to reach more, like you said, it’s the audience, I think. 

Jaclyn Mellone

So what I’m getting at is, I think a lot of this is possible before you have a big audience. So right now, what’s bringing up the imposter syndrome is that you are attaching your success, attaching your… I’ll let you fill in the blank there. But you’re attaching some sense of worth or success to the audience size of the podcast, not to the body of work that you’re creating.

Suzanne Dressler

Yep. A hundred percent. And that’s true of other areas of my life too. 

Jaclyn Mellone

And so, if you were like, okay, I am trying my number one goal is to get a book deal. And in order to get a book deal, , I need to have an X size audience, which a lot of times book publishers look for very large audiences. Then I would say, okay, the number one focus needs to be a hundred percent on audience growth and probably starting another channel to go into this, and all of this. But your goals, the ultimate goal of the book, is not the most immediate goal. And I see you being able to take on a column. I think you could get a column as soon as you’re ready to pitch columns. I think you can get a column within a month. I really do. you absolutely. You put together pitches and reach out to you. You absolutely could be writing for publications and potentially having a column within a month. I really believe that. 

So even if you put that as a goal for the end of the year or something like that. Once you realize this, and I realize we’re going back and forth between mindset and strategy, but that’s how my brain works. We can’t isolate it. If we’re just like in a Lalaland with mindset, we’re not getting the results. But if we’re just like, action, action, action, without acknowledging our own human emotions with it, then you’re not actually going to do the things. They go hand-in-hand. So when you have that focus of, okay, if I have a column, now I’m building a relationship with a media company. I’m elevating my own authority and profile within the industry. I’m maybe able to bring more traffic to the podcast, that way there’s some synergy there. I could see that as having a domino effect for you. So when we’re able to narrow that down, okay, let’s make that one of your biggest goals or one of your first priorities. Now, that shifts your energy. It shifts your focus. And you can go into solution mode. So when we talk about that, does any imposter syndrome come up? What comes or any buts come up when I mentioned that? 

Suzanne Dressler

Yes. People pitch things all the time to media companies. Listen, I do have connections at some big media outlets, but I’m afraid to ask them. And these are big, big media outlets, as some of the biggest. And these are people that are really cool, awesome people that would probably listen to me and just give me honest advice and say, okay, this is a great idea. Do this, this, and this. Don’t do this, this, and this. But I’m scared to take advantage of the connection I have, or I don’t want them to think that I’m taking advantage of them. And that’s where I become not assertive or aggressive enough. Because if I were in their position, I would be more than happy to sit down with somebody who wanted my advice and wanted to pick my brain about something, because people like to feel needed. And when somebody asks me about it, I’ve had young people ask me about tutoring and how do you get into tutoring. I’m happy to tell recent college grads, okay, this is what, you know. If I don’t have a place for you or I can’t use your skills, this is what you should do to build experience. These are the companies you should go for. This is how much you should charge, and then you’ll be surprised. And then once you have a little experience under your belt, then you can say, yes, I’m experienced with X, Y, and Z. And it’s a lot quicker than you think. So I am more than happy to help people. I’m sure there are people I know that would be more than happy to help me. I’m just hesitant to, I’m afraid. I don’t know why. I guess maybe because, as I said, I don’t want them to think that I’m taking advantage of who they are or our relationship. And I also don’t want them to be like, well, I don’t know what she’s… Maybe it is me. I don’t have the confidence enough. That’s where that imposter syndrome comes in. Why would they publish an essay that I wrote? And why wouldn’t they want to feature my podcast on something? And instead of thinking, why not? I think, why? 

Jaclyn Mellone

So let’s take that though and spin that why. You’re talking about just helping out, out of the goodness of your heart, recent college grads. That’s great. It sounds like these people that you know, they or their colleagues have to find writers. They need content. Their business literally thrives off of content. So this is not necessarily about you asking for a favor, which it could be, and there’s nothing wrong with that. But I almost want to challenge you to look at this another way of, okay, what is in it for them? What could they be looking for? And maybe there is nothing, but it sounds like in this scenario, they might. Literally, part of their job might be reading pitches, might be trying to find good articles or good columnists to include in their different publications. So why not someone who they already know and trust? Why not your content, which you are confident about, which has been proven, and you have all of these things that have come from it. 

I think flipping that around. Approaching it in a way that does feel good to you, that doesn’t feel like you’re crossing any of those lines. But you have these relationships. I’m sure they would be happy to help you. This could be a win-win situation, where they have like, let’s think of this scenario like this. Let’s say there was someone who, and I don’t know the exact and I don’t want to put you on the spot with who they are, but let’s say someone was an editor at a publication. And part of their job was finding really great columnists to create fresh content that people are going to want to read week after week on their site. And you go, and because you’re afraid to pitch that person, you go and do this with some other publication, because you’re afraid to pitch the person you have the relationship with, and it totally takes off. It’s a big hit. They may actually be mad that you didn’t come to them because they missed out on that opportunity, I thought we had a relationship here. Why would you go to that other publication? 

Suzanne Dressler

I guess because I think, why would they want me? I’m not lucky enough. I think I’m not lucky. I think it’s all luck. 

Jaclyn Mellone

There’s nothing about luck. You are talented. And listen, and they’re not a fit for what they’re doing. But I’m trying to show some other ways to look at this and we don’t know unless we put it out there. And maybe their publication or they’re not able to directly help you, but now they know that’s what you’re looking for. Maybe something changes in three months, or maybe they know someone at a different publication.  You have these relationships, going back to your first thing with what were you the go-to gal for when you were growing up, part of that was your relationships, your friendships. And so now, you have these relationships. It doesn’t have to be me, me, me, take, take, take situation. Approach it and see what that win-win can look like. See if they can help you. See how you can help them.

Suzanne Dressler

Even if they get thousands of submissions and thousands of people pitching them all the time, I feel like I don’t want to get lost in the shuffle. That is what makes me so special. That’s what I think

Jaclyn Mellone

Listen, they may not have time to look. Or maybe, because they know you, they’re going to prioritize you over all the other people. Depending on your relationship, you can always send them a message and say, I have an idea. I wanted to pitch you. What’s the best way for me to reach out? Make it really easy for them to just say this email. And that way, they may want to send you to a different email than the other one. You put them in control of the correspondence. But absolutely, these are part of the beliefs of, okay, you are onto something incredible here. You have a responsibility to get it out there. And one of the biggest things that I don’t know how I haven’t brought up yet in our conversation, but I think is really key to this whole imposter syndrome thing is, when we’re really feeling that weight of imposter syndrome, it’s like we’re holding this magnifying glass on ourselves. And we’re just looking at everything through that microscope of every possible flaw, every possible issue. so, it’s like we have this big, giant like those mirrors that have the big ring light and the super 10x where you can see all of your pores, your eyebrows.   

And so of course, we’re going to be just overwhelmed thinking of all of these negative thoughts and all of these little details of things. Because we’re looking at ourselves under that environment under that microscope. If we flip that spotlight around and we put that spotlight on your listeners, and you get as obsessed with them as you can get in your head about the negative things. That’s when, one, this is no longer just about you. And I can see that you’re in a little bit of a cycle of it’s all about me, and it’s not. You’re the conduit here, but this is not all about you. Your content helps people. And so when we’re only focused on ourselves, and I’m inconveniencing this person, or they’re going to think this about me, or I don’t have this credential, or I’m not good enough yet, you’re losing sight of the big picture of the impact that your content is making, and can make with the right partnerships and opportunities.

So when you shift your focus to the listeners, I think that that’s something that’s lacking a little bit of clarity. Because each episode is a different word, it’s figuring out what’s the through-line. There are going to be different episodes that attract different people. But in order for this to be the success that you want it to be and to go into all of these other things, there needs to be a through-line. 

So maybe it’s going back and looking at your episodes from the last year and seeing if there’s any, like with the most popular episodes. Is there a commonality? Is there an umbrella? And I don’t want to limit the scope of the words that you can cover. But maybe it’s the lens of what you’re talking them through or a certain type of person that’s going in to listen to this. I think of that person that’s doing The New York Times crossword puzzle, maybe. Maybe it’s a certain type of profile like that, but it’s also digging into their psychographics a bit more too to understand what this does for them every week? How are they benefiting?

Maybe it’s going to make them think about things in a different way, or it’s going to be that conversation starter for them or whatever it’s going to do for them. Why do they want that? Why do they need that? Why are they listening? What are they getting out of those episodes? And really understanding that listener inside and out, so you can create for them. You can write to them. And when you find those people, you have those 10 solid listeners or those 20 solid listeners. And when you get those ones that are listening to every single episode, even if there are hundreds of people listening, you want to focus on the ones that are listening to every single episode. And what do we need to do to get them to tell their friends, and get them to tell their friends because that’s how this really takes off. 

So instead of trying to appeal to everyone, it’s really figuring out, okay, who is this really for? You know the other listeners are going to come and go. But really getting to know that core group, and I think the more you put your focus on them, the more you’re going to feel inspired to help them, inspired to create for them, inspired to send that pitch because you know that they want that type of thing. Or you know that there are more people out there that haven’t found the podcast yet. But if they were reading your column in this publication, they would. 

Suzanne Dressler

That’s great advice. It actually makes a lot of sense, because it’s when it’s about other people and not myself. It was more clarity that way too. It naturally becomes about the other person. And it’s a lot easier to get clarity on other people for me than it is on me. It’s like that old adage, why can we give advice when we can’t take our own advice often? 

Jaclyn Mellone

But in any scenario, if we start looking at ourselves and assessing ourselves and scrutinizing ourselves, how can we just help the person in front of us? That’s going to clear away all that ick and really give you that ability to channel that energy of service, that energy of wanting to help, of making that bigger impact versus constantly putting that microscope on yourself and overanalyzing it. 

Suzanne Dressler

I love that. I’m taking so many notes. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Okay, and we’re almost out of time. And, I do still want you to take that villain quiz. After you take the quiz, you’ll get your result. And the next day you’ll get a full action plan, and that gives you a really fun exercise to do at the moment when things happen. Because I find that it’s like, okay, that voice pops up. How do we shift it? How do we get out of that? How do we break that cycle? And I give you a really good exercise there for that pattern to interrupt. So you can start shifting it and not letting it get in your way. So I’ll give you the link to that too. And I guess for those of you listening that haven’t taken it yet, it is jaclynmellone.com/quiz.

Alright. Okay, as we wrap, we don’t have a lot of time, so I’m sorry to put you on the spot here. What is either your biggest takeaway or what are you going to take action on? 

Suzanne Dressler

Okay, so I’m definitely going to take action on focusing on my listeners because that is going to help me with this entire season. And choosing the words and choosing the guests, and thinking about the through-line, as you said. What do the most successful episodes have in common? And for media outlets, I’m going to make a list of contacts I have in the media field, whatever it is. I’m not going to limit myself, whatever it is. And write some pitches, or and at least reach out to them to see if we can take them out for coffee kind of thing because I believe in that. So yes, that was very helpful. And I think it gave me, definitely, some more clarity on what I want my podcast to be. And it gives me action steps, which somebody that has a lot of anxiety and self-doubt, I need the action steps as opposed to just, think of it this way and you’ll be fine. No. I need this and this. 

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes. And what we did with these action steps is they’re designed to, one, to get you into action, but also they’re not going directly into the line of fire. So if it’s like if the biggest imposter syndrome was coming from the size of your audience, we’re not putting you in a situation where your success is based on the size of your audience, or you’re measuring your success and your progress based on the size of your audience. So these are action steps that are getting you to move forward. But in the same ultimate, and actually a more clear ultimate direction of where you want to go, but we figured out like, okay, this is what triggers that imposter syndrome. And it really doesn’t matter what you’re doing. So let’s not go directly head-to-head with that, which I think is going to help you be able to take action with these things. 

Suzanne Dressler

In your experience, you don’t need thousands and thousands and thousands of subscribers to have success. 

Jaclyn Mellone

It all depends on the goal. But for most podcasters, unless the goal is just to just have a podcast that is only theirs, that they’re making all this money just from ad sponsorship, then yes, you need the listeners. But even in that scenario, you really just need a really targeted group of people so you could charge more money for your ads. So for most people, it’s about, okay, with my podcast, I’m going to be able to convert it because this is my service or the offering that I have on the backend. Or for you, people bring on columnists that don’t have any platforms. You already have a platform. And so, this is just helping to, okay, now you have a podcast. Now, you’re going to add a column to this. You’re just putting this package together even more well-rounded to have a bigger pitch, to have a media company by you or partner with you, or whatever that looks like. 

So you’re just expanding that platform. And it’s not just about the audience, because they have an audience. For them, a lot of times it’s about the content. And so really putting your focus on that, they’re hiring writers because they want people that can write. So a lot of the time, writers for these publications don’t have big audiences themselves. That’s not what it’s about. So for your goals at this point in time, that audience size isn’t going to matter. Now, you shifting that focus onto your audience is going to help you grow your audience. So this is all going to help in that direction too. But if every day you’re waking up and measuring your success off of it, which I’m not saying you’re doing this, but did my podcast grow? Did my podcast grow? Then you’re constantly not feeling that. But if you’re like, oh, okay. My goal is to get a column, and you’d get that column or you get an article. You’re like, okay, at least I have that one article and you know you’re moving towards that goal. Or if it’s like, okay, let me really understand these listeners. The more you get to know them, the more you feel like you’re making progress towards that. So you’re not just measuring that success based on a metric that doesn’t really impact your ultimate goal right now and is really triggering that imposter syndrome. 

Suzanne Dressler

That was really helpful. And you’re so smart, Jaclyn. 

Jaclyn Mellone

I want to give you one more exercise to do because I want you to really feel the impact that you’re making. I think this is going to help you with clarifying who your person is too. But to also keep you really connected to who you’re creating for. So I want you to write a fictional review of the podcast.

So a listener who listened, and who didn’t just listen to one episode, because we want to really narrow in on that person who’s listening consistently. And you’re going to write from their perspective a review of the impact that listening to the podcast has made on their lives. And this gives you the chance to really get in their shoes and feel from their perspective, why they’re listening to the impact it’s making? And when you do start to feel yourself shining that spotlight on yourself, this is going to be something great for you to go back to really turn that spotlight around, and reconnect with that person who’s listening and why you’re doing all of this. 

Suzanne Dressler

Awesome. Thank you so much for having me. 

Jaclyn Mellone

You’re so welcome. Okay, how can we stay in touch with you?

Suzanne Dressler

Okay, so skyscrapertutoring.com. 

Jaclyn Mellone

We’ll put the link in the show notes too. 

Suzanne Dressler

There’s a Word For That. That’s on Buzzprout. theresawordforthat.buzzsprout.com. And I’m on Instagram @suzannerachel. So yes, those are ways to find me and keep in touch with me. And write to me if anyone has a word they want to hear. Please, please, please tell me, tell me, tell me. I really want to hear people’s desires, like what they desire to hear episodes on.

Jaclyn Mellone

Yes, alright. Thank you so, so much. This went to places I didn’t think it would go, that’s why I love these so much. I so value you opening up all these. I can’t wait to hear how those help you. 

Suzanne Dressler

Maybe, I’ll be in touch.

Jaclyn Mellone

Alright, take care.

​​Can I just say, thank you so much for listening. I don’t think I’m saying it enough, but I love that you are here. If you enjoyed today’s episode, or if you’ve been getting value from this podcast, can you do me a quick favor? Head on over to iTunes and leave a rating and review. When you leave a rating and review, it basically tells iTunes that they need to spread the word and tell more people about this podcast, and I am on a mission to get the word out. I’m so grateful for your support. We want to make sure to shout you out too. So if you do leave a rating and review, keep your eyes and ears open. We will be either shouting out in the podcast or on Instagram Stories.